The Israel Palestine problem solving thread
Estimates suggest that more civilians (9000+ ?) have been killed in Gaza in two weeks than in the Ukraine war in 20 months. Note that a subtantial propotion of civilian death in the Ukraine were indirectly caused by Ukrainian bombs - so the Russian impact is less than the 9000.
Ukrainian experience shows:
- that despite the demonisation of Russia/Putin by the collective west and endless MSM reports of civilian casualties, they actually have been very careful with their targetting given the massive scale of missiles fired - millions.
- the low casualties relative to war scale and duration is even more remarkable considering Ukraine often sited their hardware near schools and hopsitals and in built up areas for "protection". Russia did target these and often this is where civlians were hit but must have been very selective and accurate.
- as with most wars, civilians always move away from the worst fighting wherever possible, which meant much of the full on fighting in Ukraine has been army versus army well away from civilians.
Gaza is different:
- Gaza has a trapped population with less scope for wholesale movement - very unsual in urban warfare.
- Many feel nowhere is safe and so stay in place and hope, despite being warned to move.
- the purposeful use of tunnels under civilian area with the highest density population in the world creating a worst case targeting situation. Hamas are everywhere and technically are legitimate targets in multiple places even with civilians nearby.
- Israel is going hard, fast (they had to get results) and ..... a bit too angry and indiscriminate.
- The situation is just about a worst case scenario for warfare for Israel and civilians - Hamas prepared and planned it this way.
Hamas want to destroy Israel. This can be physical destruction - hard but if they foster contagion it could head that way. The threat is real hence Israel's reaction.
But they also want to destroy Israel's international legitimacy and reputation through showing:
- its weak military / defensive underbelly (not so powerful after all) - done.
- letting the ever mounting civilian toll tell a story to the world that is hard for Israel to defend no matter what the rules of war say - the more misery the better for Hamas leadership.
- this is happening fast and the US is along for the ride.
The irony is watching the chickens coming home to roost for the US as tney are stuck supporting actions leading to civilian loss of life by Israel that are well in excess of what they loudly condemned Russia for - that will just keep escalating. One rule for them, another for us sort of thing is what it confirms to the "global south" A further credibility crash that will just keep on washing through geopolitics with many consequences. China and Russia can just say nothing and let the headlines do the shifting in alignments they hope for.
Mess. Blame .... Balfour? Abraham? Big fella in sky?
frog wrote:
Estimates suggest that more civilians (9000+ ?) have been killed in Gaza in two weeks than in the Ukraine war in 20 months. Note that a subtantial propotion of civilian death in the Ukraine were indirectly caused by Ukrainian bombs - so the Russian impact is less than the 9000.
Ukrainian experience shows:
- that despite the demonisation of Russia/Putin by the collective west and endless MSM reports of civilian casualties, they actually have been very careful with their targetting given the massive scale of missiles fired - millions.
- the low casualties relative to war scale and duration is even more remarkable considering Ukraine often sited their hardware near schools and hopsitals and in built up areas for "protection". Russia did target these and often this is where civlians were hit but must have been very selective and accurate.
- as with most wars, civilians always move away from the worst fighting wherever possible, which meant much of the full on fighting in Ukraine has been army versus army well away from civilians.
Gaza is different:
- Gaza has a trapped population with less scope for wholesale movement - very unsual in urban warfare.
- Many feel nowhere is safe and so stay in place and hope, despite being warned to move.
- the purposeful use of tunnels under civilian area with the highest density population in the world creating a worst case targeting situation. Hamas are everywhere and technically are legitimate targets in multiple places even with civilians nearby.
- Israel is going hard, fast (they had to get results) and ..... a bit too angry and indiscriminate.
- The situation is just about a worst case scenario for warfare for Israel and civilians - Hamas prepared and planned it this way.
Hamas want to destroy Israel. This can be physical destruction - hard but if they foster contagion it could head that way. The threat is real hence Israel's reaction.
But they also want to destroy Israel's international legitimacy and reputation through showing:
- its weak military / defensive underbelly (not so powerful after all) - done.
- letting the ever mounting civilian toll tell a story to the world that is hard for Israel to defend no matter what the rules of war say - the more misery the better for Hamas leadership.
- this is happening fast and the US is along for the ride.
The irony is watching the chickens coming home to roost for the US as tney are stuck supporting actions leading to civilian loss of life by Israel that are well in excess of what they loudly condemned Russia for - that will just keep escalating. One rule for them, another for us sort of thing is what it confirms to the "global south" A further credibility crash that will just keep on washing through geopolitics with many consequences. China and Russia can just say nothing and let the headlines do the shifting in alignments they hope for.
Mess. Blame .... Balfour? Abraham? Big fella in sky?
Good summary.
Yep, the USA can no longer claim any moral or ethical high ground in world affairs. Whether true or not, except for UK and Australia they are looking more and more sidelined. The longer this war goes on the more and more they will look complicit in mass civilian deaths. It's their weapons and money funding this war after all.
Sad.
Artificial Intelligence fail.
Scott Ritter said that Israel began to use AI extensively to monitor and assess risks a few years ago. The were so chuffed about it they ran seminars on it that Hamas attended!
Hamas worked out how to fool it so the AI assessed their preparations to be inconsequential even though they were in plain sight and obvious. Apparently practicing with paragliders, mock raids on simulated kibbutzes and trial runs up to the wall to plant explosives were not sneaky enough for the computer to believe!
Live human observations were discounted because the computer said "No"!
Apparently the night before October 7 the senior leadership was warned by human observers that something would happen the next day. Leadership had doubts as it did not fit with the AI assessment. They chose to sleep on it and convene the next day!!!!
Crikey - the incompetence of all the supposed Westen military experts has been on full display in the past few years - NATO, US and now Israel. Just adding to a long list of failure. Wrong in predictions, strategy and especially in assessing their oppositions strengths and ability to respond and adapt - often obviously so. Hubris is spread rich and thick.
What do they teach these people? How do they select the leaders? Diversity scores or brown nose points? Group think scores? Reject anyone who strays off the NARRATIVE as displaying unsafe microagressions and not being a team player? No hope for competence until all that changes it seems.
Cue etarip to jump in to defend them - or has he given up?
But AI sure makes great big boobed fake images of Scarlett Johansson in tight fitting outfits.
Would there be any Palestinians left in Israel if it wasn’t for Hamas and other Arab militant groups?
Jelly Flater wrote:
… then and now
These are very good videos Jelly. They thoroughly describe the intensity of daily interactions between different groups. There is no solution to this whole situation. Jews will not move, and Palestinians will not move. Fighting will carry on for decades.
@flollo… yep, some interesting insights.
This vid below has some powerful info and parallels…
- 6:40 mins to 7:45 mins… facts.
These deep thinkers have it sorted:
I particularly think the placard "Reproductive justice means free Palestine" could be the one that convinces Hamas and Benji to negotiate peace.
Debunked your garbage in just 90 seconds.pic.twitter.com/bKhuz9yU16
— U.S. Ministry of Truth (@USMiniTru) November 4, 2023
The intentions of #Hamas are clear – just read their founding charter. @TheRWCHR’s @IrwinCotler dives into the legal issues surrounding Hamas's genocidal aims, in conversation with @FDD’s @ordefk and @CliffordDMay.
— FDD (@FDD) November 3, 2023
🎧 :https://t.co/gP9l55Njw1 pic.twitter.com/a22uDb4ZKY
Storing weapons near civilian sites and hospitals, is part of Hamas’s doctrine. A NATO report examining Hamas activities between 2008 and 2014 found that they fire “rockets, artillery, and mortars from or in proximity to heavily populated civilian areas: https://t.co/Wu0okGleQz
— FDD (@FDD) November 3, 2023
Iran maintains a wide range of relationships with non-state armed groups across the Middle East. The IISS has mapped and assessed these relationships, which vary in nature, importance and usefulness for Tehran.
— IISS News (@IISS_org) November 3, 2023
Read more. https://t.co/l6997NipzH pic.twitter.com/qjLeG8mKcm
The next important jurisdiction is Lebanon. The Hamas leadership roams free there. They coordinate openly with the Iran-backed Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad. They maintain a nerve center for terrorist operations - writes @JSchanzer:https://t.co/5GqAuY9g0N
— FDD (@FDD) November 3, 2023
Iran has built a coalition of militias that operate from Lebanon to Syria to Yemen.
— American Enterprise Institute (@AEI) November 3, 2023
AEI's @NicholasACarl on how the 'Axis of Resistance' lets Iran destabilize the Middle East.https://t.co/pe4tSUwtNT
What's with Hezbollah?
— FDD (@FDD) November 3, 2023
1️⃣ Iran-backed terror org
2️⃣ Loyal to Khamenei
3️⃣ Terror record
4️⃣ Lebanon political force
5️⃣ War w/ Israel in '06
6️⃣ Huge rocket/missile arsenal
7️⃣ Receives Iran funds
8️⃣ Supports global crimes
9️⃣ Uses human shields
🔟 Sanctioned…
Disinformation experts have advice for everyone re Gaza: "Be careful… Find trusted sources, corroborate information where you can, be suspicious of emotionally laden content or overly dramatic headlines, and take a pause before hitting that share button." https://t.co/W1isxAus8P
— RAND (@RANDCorporation) November 4, 2023
Analysis from @sfrantzman:
— FDD (@FDD) November 3, 2023
“Israel is succeeding to contain and defeat Hamas in Gaza. As the IDF advances, the conflict will enter a new phase. Hamas is hiding behind civilians in the densely populated areas of Gaza City…”https://t.co/64NCFObkTI
haha...
does the bbc not do social media?
LMFAO! 😂😂😂😂
— The opinionated Black woman ~ Aunty (@Theblackfemini3) November 4, 2023
Mr FAFO has made it on to the BBC haha 😄 pic.twitter.com/Umv4gBEUM2
Et ce n’est par parce que #mrFAFO a également dupé le New York Times et la BBC le même jour que @Francetele n’aurait pas dû éviter le piège. https://t.co/76Wee9gZnc
— InfoEquitable (@InfoEquitable) November 5, 2023
or is this guy actually israeli propaganda?
LMFAO!
— The opinionated Black woman ~ Aunty (@Theblackfemini3) November 5, 2023
Mr FAFO is dining 😂 https://t.co/vmOttzrhDy
seeds wrote:
Hasbara
https://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/truth-or-fake/20231027-pallywood-t…
https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2023/11/01/pallywood-gazans-are-fals…
Well truth being the first casualty of war is definitely the case, I would say on all sides.
What a mess.
andy-mac wrote:
Hasbarahttps://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/truth-or-fake/20231027-pallywood-t…
https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2023/11/01/pallywood-gazans-are-fals…
Well truth being the first casualty of war is definitely the case, I would say on all sides.
What a mess.
Definitely. Hard to know what to believe in this day and age of digital media, socials and influencers. And yes, what a mess.
Morrison in Israel and Dutton in India .https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/scott-morrison-and-boris-johnso…
frog wrote:
Estimates suggest that more civilians (9000+ ?) have been killed in Gaza in two weeks than in the Ukraine war in 20 months. Note that a subtantial propotion of civilian death in the Ukraine were indirectly caused by Ukrainian bombs - so the Russian impact is less than the 9000.
Ukrainian experience shows:
- that despite the demonisation of Russia/Putin by the collective west and endless MSM reports of civilian casualties, they actually have been very careful with their targetting given the massive scale of missiles fired - millions.
- the low casualties relative to war scale and duration is even more remarkable considering Ukraine often sited their hardware near schools and hopsitals and in built up areas for "protection". Russia did target these and often this is where civlians were hit but must have been very selective and accurate.
- as with most wars, civilians always move away from the worst fighting wherever possible, which meant much of the full on fighting in Ukraine has been army versus army well away from civilians.
Gaza is different:
- Gaza has a trapped population with less scope for wholesale movement - very unsual in urban warfare.
- Many feel nowhere is safe and so stay in place and hope, despite being warned to move.
- the purposeful use of tunnels under civilian area with the highest density population in the world creating a worst case targeting situation. Hamas are everywhere and technically are legitimate targets in multiple places even with civilians nearby.
- Israel is going hard, fast (they had to get results) and ..... a bit too angry and indiscriminate.
- The situation is just about a worst case scenario for warfare for Israel and civilians - Hamas prepared and planned it this way.
Hamas want to destroy Israel. This can be physical destruction - hard but if they foster contagion it could head that way. The threat is real hence Israel's reaction.
But they also want to destroy Israel's international legitimacy and reputation through showing:
- its weak military / defensive underbelly (not so powerful after all) - done.
- letting the ever mounting civilian toll tell a story to the world that is hard for Israel to defend no matter what the rules of war say - the more misery the better for Hamas leadership.
- this is happening fast and the US is along for the ride.
The irony is watching the chickens coming home to roost for the US as tney are stuck supporting actions leading to civilian loss of life by Israel that are well in excess of what they loudly condemned Russia for - that will just keep escalating. One rule for them, another for us sort of thing is what it confirms to the "global south" A further credibility crash that will just keep on washing through geopolitics with many consequences. China and Russia can just say nothing and let the headlines do the shifting in alignments they hope for.
Mess. Blame .... Balfour? Abraham? Big fella in sky?
Ive heard this talked about many times on podcast and videos etc, Hamas invasion and kid napping was just to kick the hornets nest and to get Israel too attack with the intention of getting as many civilians killed as possible.*
They no they could never win any war the aim is to turn as many around the world from West to East against Israel, and it will sadly work, Hamas simps are popping up everywhere.
Israel is in an impossible situation they cant just let Hamas continue, they need to get rid of Hamas and as many tunnels as possible but the only way to take them out is exactly the way they are doing it which will always result in lots of civilians deaths because as we know Hamas purposely put them in the firing line.
But yeah it puts USA in a hard position, USA need to support Israel this isn't just an attack against Israel its an attack against the west and everything the West stands for.
* Obviously Iran had their motivations behind funding things too.
Supafreak wrote:
Morrison in Israel and Dutton in India .https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/scott-morrison-and-boris-johnso…
"Scott Morrison and Boris Johnson fly into Israel"
Good on them both.
Good on Biden for getting out there too.
Good reminder by @billmaher of what Western civilization really stands for & why Israel is a beacon of freedom, rights, democracy & prosperity in a region run by theocrats who have 0 respect for the rights of all the protestors supporting Hamas. https://t.co/5xEq113yPU
— Michael Shermer (@michaelshermer) November 4, 2023
“…we’re spending our national treasure on war. We’re a war machine as a nation. We prefer war over healthcare, we prefer war over housing, we prefer war over education… We prefer war over the economic welfare of our own citizens…..”
https://x.com/news_australian/status/1721315148328300971?s=46&t=5RczxwA…. Is Scott Morrison the only man in the world who can end the Israel-Palestine War & bring lasting peace to the Middle East? https://x.com/blakandblack/status/1721316074119893289?s=46&t=5RczxwAfzX…
Jelly Flater wrote:
“…we’re spending our national treasure on war. We’re a war machine as a nation. We prefer war over healthcare, we prefer war over housing, we prefer war over education… We prefer war over the economic welfare of our own citizens…..”
Sober viewing .... Geez.
I'm not going to make a big deal about this, but Bill Maher absolutely sucks. He's basically a overly-confident boomer Facebook commenter but for some reason has a TV show.
dandandan wrote:
I'm not going to make a big deal about this, but Bill Maher absolutely sucks. He's basically a overly-confident boomer Facebook commenter but for some reason has a TV show.
yeh, he can be pretty annoying
his delivery is kinda grating
doesn't change the fact, he's largely correct...
Here's a tour of the Hamas tunnels under Gaza:
Hamas terrorist give RT a tour of their tunnel network in Gaza - called the Metro. Video shows Hamas fighters with weapons (ATGMs, RPGs, Snipers, machine guns) waiting in advanced tunnels to conduct surprise counterattacks on @IDF Have power, fuel, other services. pic.twitter.com/CrAKlPNUqM
— John Spencer (@SpencerGuard) October 31, 2023
Any tunnel digging experts here? Are these as solid as they look?
indo-dreaming wrote:
Estimates suggest that more civilians (9000+ ?) have been killed in Gaza in two weeks than in the Ukraine war in 20 months. Note that a subtantial propotion of civilian death in the Ukraine were indirectly caused by Ukrainian bombs - so the Russian impact is less than the 9000.Ukrainian experience shows:
- that despite the demonisation of Russia/Putin by the collective west and endless MSM reports of civilian casualties, they actually have been very careful with their targetting given the massive scale of missiles fired - millions.
- the low casualties relative to war scale and duration is even more remarkable considering Ukraine often sited their hardware near schools and hopsitals and in built up areas for "protection". Russia did target these and often this is where civlians were hit but must have been very selective and accurate.
- as with most wars, civilians always move away from the worst fighting wherever possible, which meant much of the full on fighting in Ukraine has been army versus army well away from civilians.
Gaza is different:
- Gaza has a trapped population with less scope for wholesale movement - very unsual in urban warfare.
- Many feel nowhere is safe and so stay in place and hope, despite being warned to move.
- the purposeful use of tunnels under civilian area with the highest density population in the world creating a worst case targeting situation. Hamas are everywhere and technically are legitimate targets in multiple places even with civilians nearby.
- Israel is going hard, fast (they had to get results) and ..... a bit too angry and indiscriminate.
- The situation is just about a worst case scenario for warfare for Israel and civilians - Hamas prepared and planned it this way.
Hamas want to destroy Israel. This can be physical destruction - hard but if they foster contagion it could head that way. The threat is real hence Israel's reaction.
But they also want to destroy Israel's international legitimacy and reputation through showing:
- its weak military / defensive underbelly (not so powerful after all) - done.
- letting the ever mounting civilian toll tell a story to the world that is hard for Israel to defend no matter what the rules of war say - the more misery the better for Hamas leadership.
- this is happening fast and the US is along for the ride.
The irony is watching the chickens coming home to roost for the US as tney are stuck supporting actions leading to civilian loss of life by Israel that are well in excess of what they loudly condemned Russia for - that will just keep escalating. One rule for them, another for us sort of thing is what it confirms to the "global south" A further credibility crash that will just keep on washing through geopolitics with many consequences. China and Russia can just say nothing and let the headlines do the shifting in alignments they hope for.
Mess. Blame .... Balfour? Abraham? Big fella in sky?
Ive heard this talked about many times on podcast and videos etc, Hamas invasion and kid napping was just to kick the hornets nest and to get Israel too attack with the intention of getting as many civilians killed as possible.*
They no they could never win any war the aim is to turn as many around the world from West to East against Israel, and it will sadly work, Hamas simps are popping up everywhere.
Israel is in an impossible situation they cant just let Hamas continue, they need to get rid of Hamas and as many tunnels as possible but the only way to take them out is exactly the way they are doing it which will always result in lots of civilians deaths because as we know Hamas purposely put them in the firing line.
But yeah it puts USA in a hard position, USA need to support Israel this isn't just an attack against Israel its an attack against the west and everything the West stands for.
* Obviously Iran had their motivations behind funding things too.
Peaceful Hamas and loving supporters (as if they would tear down posters of kidnapped kids) around the world really do want peace negotiated.
1st combat ballistic missile shoot-down:
https://www.smh.com.au/world/middle-east/in-a-first-israel-shoots-down-…
The Poms are waking up to Palestine hate. Poppy sellers punched, English remembrance is rascist. Islamic problems will only get bigger.
sypkan wrote:
I'm not going to make a big deal about this, but Bill Maher absolutely sucks. He's basically a overly-confident boomer Facebook commenter but for some reason has a TV show.yeh, he can be pretty annoying
his delivery is kinda grating
doesn't change the fact, he's largely correct...
Yep, he is correct. 100% correct.
Local Imams in Sydney calling death to Jews….and their followers are all praising it.
who cares what percent bill maher is correct.. he is a cock.. an irrelevant u.s. cock at that.
Shrinken Blinken
Turkey did not have a senior diplomat greet him at the airport - a major snub. Not quite an economy class queue and a forced cavity search. But in diplomatic terms, it was close to it.
Blinken struggling for relevance and respect in the middle east shuffle. Cold shoulders and crows feet sandwiches is all he is getting.
Blinken promises to ask Israel to use smaller bombs to lessen civilian casualties. That would have gone down well. It is symptomatic of the US being painted into a corner in what it can do.
basesix wrote:
who cares what percent bill maher is correct.. he is a cock.. an irrelevant u.s. cock at that.
good example of how society is increasingly losing its way to engage in meaningful discourse. because you don't like the guy, it's irrelevant what he has to say.. even if he is (mostly?) right.
nah, bonza, when there's everyone and their dog offering a wide range of opinions, someone being a cock makes for an easy pass. It's not the 80s, being on the telly doesn't make someone relevant.
quite right, I didn't need to say it, it didn't need saying. He's the same as everyone : )
That’s a great call
“It's not the 80s, being on the telly doesn't make someone relevant.”
Cheers bud.
sypkan wrote:
https://twitter.com/michaelshermer/status/1720814908999401796
Dropping truth bombs left right and centre.
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