Trump
Soooooo "the system" isn't rigged. Hang on. Or is it?............... I'm confused.....
Well there you have it. The second populist upset of 2016. Marine Le Pen next (or Italy before?).
Mr Turkey I think you are right that Mr Steve was cointelpro, a bit deeper research was required.
It seems nations want to be nations again. People want borders. And the leftist inner cities and conservative rural/suburban areas are in opposition across the Western world. People don't like the exposure of outright fraud in elections. And this sweeping feeling is so strong you see right wing figures adopting left wing economic policy (national protection), and being voted in in wild popularity.
Markets shat the bed, dow was limit down 650 before Trump's speech (put everyone to work upgrading infrastructure), then half that. Precious metals had a Sterling day (bad pun). Calendar ahead into 2017... looks rocky.
Kind of crazy that USA and Australia are yet to vote in a female president/prime minister. (The Aussie public never voted Julia in)
Even Indonesia that has the biggest muslim population in the world voted in a female president 15 years ago.
True, Indo.... But on a state level Qld has voted in a female leader, twice - Bligh and Palaszczuk.
what you talkin bout indo? julia won her minority govt by election in 2010.
Should be straight forward, all the polls say the anti-establishment parties don't have a chance 
The record of female leaders the world over speaks for itself. Back to the kitchen as they say.
Mr Koch, not a chance like Brexit 4/1 and Trump 4/1 on the day beforehand? Polling and odds have egg on their faces. Good chart but, I like it.
Yep, that sort of not a chance. The sort that exposes the shill media and pollsters.
& wake up to find Dow up 245, that's an 800 point turnaround, gotta love unpredictable political events lol
I did read one trader say he bet his retirement on OTM puts, oh dear
If you listened to Trumps victory speech then you will understand why the stock market bounced back - in a solid manner. Obama will get a lesson on how and what to say after listening to Trump.
The start of a new day of disorder....like a world with no Surf forecasts!
Yeah, disorderly queues as b grade celebrity shills stay true to their word
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-11-09/these-are-celebrities-who-vowe…
The Tones says " If you listened to Trumps victory speech then you will understand why the stock market bounced back - in a solid manner. Obama will get a lesson on how and what to say after listening to Trump."
Very instructive Tones how you have (mostly) presented yourself here as a reasonable person yet here you are aligning yourself with Trump. As I said very instructive and it confirms my view of you and veiled snipes over the last couple of years.
Interesting reading from Spiked, the pommie libertarian publication who pushed hard on Brexit and all causes for free speech and anti-state control and even they are against Trump. Granted they're a bit more...how would you say, considered, in their opinions. Some might even call them intellectual...but they're got the right wing of their house in order and they're appalled. The only benefit, in their mind, is that once Trump goes a real libertarian may wrest control of the levers and complete the 'sovereign nation' project without the ego, illiberalism, and illogic of Trump.
Like Benski mentioned yesterday I'm slightly baffled that the right has assumed left wing concepts such as trade protection, but if Trump follows through on it it 'may' be a good thing.
The elephant in the house is big business; economic disadvantage was thrust to the fore in this election, the cause of which was immigration (taking US jobs) and free trade (shifting labor markets). However, at least for the latter, big business has much to answer for. All those tumbleweed towns in the Mid-West rust belt were once supported by American business who chose to shift their operations abroad. Will they return?
...and to all those people ragging on 'the media' for getting it wrong, as if they all suffered some collective delusion.
Remember many Republicans, even the speaker of the house, disendorsed Trump. These are the people who know the state of their constituency better than anyone and they thought he was a lost cause.
Stunet wrote: "Like Benski mentioned yesterday I'm slightly baffled that the right has assumed left wing concepts such as trade protection, but if Trump follows through on it it 'may' be a good thing."
I think not if it is carried out on the premis of xenophobia and neurotic nationalism.
Yup...and that explains my 'cautious quote marks'.
Last night I read the opening chapter of 'In Defence of Global Capitalism', which was the holy tome for progressives ten years ago. Back then we had Bush and Cheney trying to spread American democracy across the Middle East while the Washington Consensus was being forced on almost every country in the world. Globalisation was the only answer to the world's ills.
Now, a decade later, we've got the polar opposite, and amazingly it's being controlled by the leader of the same party of Bush and Cheney!
Yes, it was not only the media that got Trump wrong but finance 'experts', political 'experts', and more. To be exact you may not have got Trump wrong but you got the people's mood wrong. Trump actually got it right. This 'left' / ' 'right' thing is way too simplistic and a flawed way of looking at it. Already, we have seen the people mood here and arguably Britain and yep, you can expect more in Europe in the coming months. Merkel is looking fragile. Italy is always moody.
The important element in this, was Trumps acceptance speech. Sanity will prevail.
What a waste of a decade then, 8 years of Obama pushing the same policies as bush and Cheney. Adding Libya, Syria, Somalia and Yemen to the devastation, what a legacy
Yeah maybe...be interested to see if/how Trump pulls out of the MIddle East. Still a lot of cheap oil sitting under those sands, and it's oil that big American businesses want.
Also, I imagine there'd be a few generals not happy to be decommissioned either. Plus, one of his policies was to raise defence spending and increase the Army and Marine corps. To what end?
Sadly I just don't see how an extreme narcissist in ALL aspects of his character is able to avoid causing a great deal of conflict internally and externally to the USA.
Tonybarber you are so right in your statement: "This 'left' / ' 'right' thing is way too simplistic and a flawed way of looking at it." Its way to simple to assume that extreme malignant narcissism is entrenched in any single side of the dichotomy in political ideology. Narcissism can exist in anyone and it can inspire others to pursue self-interested ideas rather than consider themselves as a tiny contribution to a gigantic global society.
Clearly a big part of trump's vote weren't their constituency
The media and pollsters got it so wrong because they truly live in a different world to your average Joe. This is now a little cliché, but in the modern context this point cannot be overstated.
Trump had half his own party working against him and still won, that ain't just whitedudes
Yeh some miserable fucks on here show there is a racist undercurrent but it's a small minority and denigrating the whole movement hasn't served the media well, especially when that card was well and truly worn out long ago
People of all colours and classes are sick to death of political correctness, trump tapped in on that, he blew it out of the water, that doesn't mean we're all going to regress to discococks, but if the left doesn't back off to some manageable level of tolerance equilibrium they will loose that fight.
It really is just the growing class divisions in the left that have lead to trump, as the well to do and politically savvy live in this bubble of social norms and ideals. If you don't take people with you how can you expect them to share your ideals?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/nov/09/rise-of-the-davos…
Clinton is the epitome of the establishment, pushed by the establishment so much so they steamrolled their own quality candidate that could have been democratically elected, and almost certainly would have
Drain the swamp is very appropriate
if we are allowed to quote right wing sites now, this is what feminists and one eyed democrats seem to blatantly overlook, god knows how, the evidence is damming
https://www
.spectator.co.
uk/2016/10/the-woman-is-a-disaster-camille-paglia-on-hillary-clinton/
When the anti war look after workers guy is a millionaire right wing crazy man, and the nice lady looks after wall street, banks, the industrial military complex and Saudi Arabia interests you know the system is broken
InSypo! Camille Paglia! On these threads! I like it. Provocateurs like her & Žižek, with some real bonafide brain-power, are always interesting to hear from. The neo-liberal system is broken. The cracks and fissures are getting wider. Who fills these gaps is the thing. 'Interesting times'!
Admittedly it doesn't look good, but look at the alternative
Doesn't even kerb her hawkish narrative
I don't know how anyone can think the 'conventional wisdom' has been working, our dubious allies are the problem, Bernie and trump both said it, Mrs. Moneybags admits it privately while flatly denying everything publicly
When is enough enough?
5 years was too much for Vietnam, what the fuck is wrong with people when we have a 15 year war still with no plan?
And the 'progressives' just lap it up
War with who? Certainly trump has intimated he wants to improve relations with Russia, so there goes Russia, Syria, Ukraine. Obama has been pushing for conflict with Russia and China for the last few years, other than that they're already at war with most of the Middle East either directly or by proxy and Clinton made it quite clear she would move on Iran if she was elected.
Obama not only a warmonger but a racist and xenophobe if you apply the same logic applied to trump.
constitutional law professor President, Obama. In February 2014, the Economist reported that:
"America is expelling illegal immigrants at nine times the rate of 20 years ago (see article); nearly 2 million so far under Barack Obama, easily outpacing any previous president. Border patrol agents no longer just patrol the border; they scour the country for illegals to eject. The deportation machine costs more than all other areas of federal criminal law-enforcement combined. It tears families apart and impoverishes America."
https://newmatilda.com/2016/11/10/if-you-think-racism-won-donald-trump-…
His promise to "bomb the shit out of ISIS" could have unintended consequences, same with his promised "trade war" on China, and also his backing of Israel. All the while, his shoot-from-the-hip rhetoric can/will foment animosity. It's hard to see how his policies - what we know of them - will increase stability, and America has too many business interests around the world to ignore regional instability.
A short digression...
On the home front he's already said a few good things about using cheap debt to fund infrastructure and employ the "delporables" but I can't see the sustainability in that. Automation is gonna take all those manufacturing jobs anyway - the same as it will eventually take them in SE Asia - and he's put forth no other plan for long term employment. Will they take the service jobs vacated by Mexicans? Surely a hit to the dignity, no?
So he'll have instability on his own doorstep. And what then..?
I'm glad you put the old quotation marks round 'progressives', InSypo. Who are they? The Corporate Democrats (as Jello Biafra amongst others have called them)?
People like him have been railing against them since the first Clinton experience. The NAFTA, GATT, WTO 'good times'. You don't want to conflate the US, UK & us too much BUT around that time, the time of this 'third way' bollocks pushed on the 'progressive' side by Clinton, Blair, and of course latterly from the second-rate Latham, the neo-liberal rot really set in on that side of the house. Remember Rudd, the 'fiscal conservative'? I was overseas when I first heard that and that's when my alarm bells rang, even though it was "anyone but Howard...again" by that time back then.
Yeah, Keating ushered in a lot of it pre-this time period. He was reactive/proactive under the world pressure the 'economic revolution' of Reaganomics & Thatcherism brought to bear. Ties too strong to ignore? Could he have looked elsewhere for a blue-print?
There are some that look at, say, Norway and point in that direction. But really? Australia hasn't got the figs, figuratively. We are a deeply conservative nation. The 'egalitarian', matey, larrikin/rebel lies we tell ourselves don't stack up, especially politically. We're a nation of class clowns...stuck in the 'class' room with whatever 'teacher' is in for the period.
What will Australian politics learn from the Sanders/Trump/Hillary election? Or the Corbyn/Brexit/UKIP experience? Which way we gonna go? Wanna go? Need to go?
& in some ways, with the make-up of our media landscape, and its even MORE concentration soon, it's going to be an even tougher task to sort this all out. Phew. 'Interesting times' indeed.
I agree stunet he hasn't got a clue, but he's said he'll talk to Russia, that's a start,
it's now common knowledge Clinton funded ISIS and destabilised Syria, it's common knowledge this was for a pipeline to cross the country and that Russia want to do the same. Syria invited Russia because we covertly destroyed their country, Russians presence is legitimate ours is not, yet Clintons establishment thinks we've got to bomb the fuck out of them
I'll take talk to Russia, as this is only the current peak in an ongoing 15 year campaign aligned with bigger philosophies that don't seem to be working
sypkan, You've said it's common knowledge Clinton funded ISIS and all that. Can you elaborate on that? I've been a bit of an ostrich with the anti-Clinton stuff, not because I support her (I don't support any of them) but because it all seemed to be the realms of conspiracy and nut-jobbery. If she actually funded ISIS that's tantamount to a war crime I would have thought, so for it to be common knowledge the evidence would have to be there. And I'd have thought some of the establishment crowd would have gone after her for that. Can you explain it a bit?
And I should say, I'm not having a go at you or trying to start a fight, I'm genuinely curious and you're a reasonable person who won't send me down some backwards rabbit hole.
Bomb the shit out of Isis is already happening in Syria and again in Iraq. If anything a cooperative stance with Russia and Iran in these issues is a safer resolution than continuing a proxy war against them. Economic war with China is already happening, China are going all out against the US dollar. Trump has never said he would dissolve free trade, he's said he will work on deals that are less on sided. Protectionism may be what the states need, obviously it's an economic basket case.
The media has a lot to answer for setting this guy up as a monster. Obama can make jokes about droning people while at the same time droning innocent real people. Hillary can make jokes about the leader of the most successful country in Africa being sodomised to death with a knife and the population left with a bombed, failed state. Both are praised for their virtues. Trump makes a crude pussy grabbing comment about a fictitious event and half the western world becomes hysterical. Where's the moral honesty, where's the moral perspective?
It's all there to be read benski, once you've looked at Isis funding there's Ukraine, manipulating/rigging the pre selection, manipulating the press, inciting violence at trump rallies (veritas), Clinton foundation scams, rigging elections and polling (veritas), Haiti etc etc etcshe's got a shitlist so long it's any wonder more people in the states want to see her in jail than voted for her.
Like turkey said, interesting times. Information can't be controlled like it was, Wikileaks involvement in this election is testament to that.
"Wikileaks involvement in this election is testament to that."
Wonder if he'll come out of his Ecuadorian cubby house now. Surely he's safe?
well it's not actually common knowledge benski, so it's still steeped in conspiracy, it's coming out though,
the lines are blurred when rebels actually became ISIS but I'll try and find something credible
The pipeline stuff has been flying around for ages
So you're a bomb-thrower, Kochie, like Assange (but don't think for a sec Julian hasn't got more personal ulterior motives), and Trump is just the incendiary device? Or you are a legitimate Trump dude that thinks he's got some/any answers?
Information may not be as controlled as it was (as you put it), but dissemination by corporate media is still the biggest game in town at the mo. And looking even bleaker in Australia sooner rather than later.
Race against time for a digital, net-savvy, & well informed populace?
Let see what Donald's got, can't be any worse than it is now. Their economy is stuffed with whole cities shut down and Clinton one of the main culprits responsible for making a mess of the Middle east. Democracy won't work in an Islamic country so stop dreaming. It's good for us but Arabs need the biggest bully to be in charge of all the other bullies. You could go to the beach, wear a bikini, stay in a nice hotel and have a beer in Syria before the Muslim brotherhood uprising and America backing them with guns for a stupid attempt at democracy. If everybody stays home and minds their own business, builds their own economy and keep all the arabs inside their own borders to fight it out amongst themselves, we will all be better off. Go Donald, hope your not full of crap and can actually rebuild Americas economy. He's got tons of coin and a super hot missus so he can't be that stupid.
Here's something benski,, I had a good military dude article, i'll try and find that
https://www.mintpressnews
.com/migrant-crisis-syria-war-fueled-by-competing-gas-pipelines/209294/
koch is right, wikileaks has changed the world and the machine is just catching up
sheepdog pointed it out months ago, when the rothchilds or someone was lamenting the internet, as they had lost control of the narrative
still in denial, but definitely lost control
The positive I see is perhaps now we can have an independent foreign policy.
Yes, Stunts...it was apt yesterday (when it was first posted by some goofball), apt today, and apt for the foreseeable...unfortunately.
BobC Wrote: Democracy won't work in an Islamic country so stop dreaming.
Muslim President Jokowi was democratically elected in Indonesia, the most populace Muslim country in the world. He is making great progress (depending on what you believe) and all in the name of Democracy.
The most perceptive piece yet written about him.
https://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2016/04/america-tyranny-donald-tru…