Blowin wrote:

Craig wrote:

JQ wrote:

burleigh wrote:

Are you ever going to believe you have been fooled?

No Significant Difference in Viral Load Between Vaccinated and Unvaccinated, Asymptomatic and Symptomatic Groups When Infected with SARS-CoV-2 Delta Variant

Here is the study link:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.09.28.21264262v2

At the risk of engaging with fools...

This is not the full story burleigh.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261295v1

"Conclusion The mRNA vaccines are highly effective at preventing symptomatic and severe COVID-19 associated with B.1.617.2 infection. Vaccination is associated with faster decline in viral RNA load and a robust serological response. Vaccination remains a key strategy for control of COVID-19 pandemic."

Looks like Burleigh doesn't actually read the stuff he shares, just regurgitates what others in his echo chamber do.

Thanks for bringing light to that study though!

Craig…..The point being argued was Roadkill’s claim that unvaccinated carry a viral load 20 times that of unvaccinated when infected. Could you please show me the part of that study which confirms this claim.

I haven’t read the study myself. Thanks mate.

PS….Omicron is an anagram of Moronic. Particularly apt for the panic mongers.

The point being argued was Roadkill’s claim that unvaccinated carry a viral load 20 times that of unvaccinated when infected.

I did not say this.

AndyM wrote:

"Scientists face barrage of conspiracy theories and falsehoods at unprecedented levels, study finds"

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/dec/02/traitor-the-aust…

Really interesting article and it's no wonder scientists face this: academia is completely compromised and you can trust very little of the 'research' coming out of it, as explained in the article:

The Guardian wrote:

Lead author of the BMJ Open study, Dr Lisa Parker from the University of Sydney’s school of pharmacy, said she conducted interviews with Australian researchers and science communicators and asked for their views about flawed research and misinformation in the context of the pandemic, and more generally.

They shared concerns about long neglected issues in academia and media that led to misinformation, including the production of fraudulent or biased science research, pressures in research culture to constantly publish research papers, inadequate training in research misconduct, problems in the academic publishing system, and lack of public access to high quality research. They also said the loss of specialist journalists to explain and critically evaluable scientific studies, and lack of skilled science communicators, had played a part in the spread of misinformation.

Parker said a possible solution was to make academic publishing more transparent by removing paywalls for access to research, something long called for. Academic journals also needed to make comments from peer-reviewers – who scrutinise papers before they are published – public. Researchers should be mandated to register their studies including the study protocols, and should make any datasets that inform their findings public, Parker added.

We can’t expect people just to take what we do as face value. And you can only hope that by standing up and exposing the junk, we are showing that we are here to promote high quality, trustworthy information. I would also encourage the public to really be careful about where they’re getting their news from and to try to seek out reputable sources.

Academia is just another profit driven capitalist free-for-all.

It would be a very long, challenging and painful ordeal to clean up academia and the international journal system.

"The point being argued was Roadkill’s claim that unvaccinated carry a viral load 20 times that of unvaccinated when infected.

I did not say this."

Look on the bright side Roadkill. blowin is only misrepresenting you on medical opinions. The other day he was misrepresenting me saying I defended pedos.

Roadkill wrote:

Supafreak wrote:

Can someone explain to me how me being vaccinated protects those around me ? Omicron has shown just how ridiculous that statement from government and media is . As far as case numbers go , it’s not a realistic reflection of hospitalised patients , but the media love the hype .

An unvaccinated person is 20 x more likely to pass on covid to others. Your viral loading is reduced due to vaccines thus you don’t pass it on as much.

It’s completely incorrect to say “ Your viral loading is reduced due to vaccines” and then go on to use this as evidence of likelihood of vaccinated vs unvaccinated passing in the virus.

Roadkill….genuine question. Do you think that unvaccinated people should be excluded from society because they may allow a virus to mutate into more severe forms? Don’t you think this approach is discriminatory and extreme? The likelihood of this happening must be very small. Do you really believe that treating a sub section of society as pariahs on the basis that they MIGHT further the evolution of a virus is not an evil way to act?

AndyM wrote:

Blue Diamond will be stoked to know that in the future no one will be singled out and ridiculed for their beliefs.

He’ll also be pleased that there will be a prize in every McHappy meal and all participants will receive a trophy.

Da Fuk?? What on earth are you on about??

https://theconversation.com/no-vaccinated-people-are-not-just-as-infect…

addresses the viral load link that burleigh posted (non-peer reviewed) but also the peer reviewed Lancet study

"The likelihood of this happening must be very small"
And you base this statement on what exactly blowin? Years of medical research at a world class university? or did you see it on YouTube? or is it just one of your hunches?
Vaccine passports are not "discrimination" clown. They are a public health measure designed to protect sensible people from morons.
It's called consequences for people's choices, and don't the adult babies hate being held accountable. Newsflash blowin, we don't make laws in this country for the benefit of idiots who get their medical opinions from YouTube.

"Academia is just another profit driven capitalist free-for-all.
It would be a very long, challenging and painful ordeal to clean up academia and the international journal system"

what's your solution gsco. you've been banging on about academia, scientific publishing and feeding the nutters that, given you work in the trade would be tickling their nipples with glee.

who should we trust? insta? no one? what do we do - just curl up in a ball and block everything out?

and this is not meant to be critical or nasty but why are you so bitter towards the scientific establishment? You are obviously one smart cookie but is it perhaps you had one too many manuscript knocked back - are you over it?

and to clear I see no shame in having papers rejected. but acknowledge the gutting frustration.

Anyone care to comment on or attempt to defend the indefensible displays of anger and violence now being directed towards retail sales staff on a daily basis who are asking customers to prove their vaccination status?

GuySmiley wrote:

Anyone care to comment on or attempt to defend the indefensible displays of anger and violence now being directed towards retail sales staff on a daily basis who are asking customers to prove their vaccination status?

Oh come on GS, these people are Freedom Fighters. Oh and that bloke who ran over people working at the testing clinic, well he's a freedom fighter too. Lots of crew cheering on that guy on social media.
But on a serious note, would anyone be shocked if the protest in Melbourne this Saturday exploded with cooker violence? CBD traders have already been warned to expect trouble.

Blowin wrote:

Roadkill wrote:

Supafreak wrote:

Can someone explain to me how me being vaccinated protects those around me ? Omicron has shown just how ridiculous that statement from government and media is . As far as case numbers go , it’s not a realistic reflection of hospitalised patients , but the media love the hype .

An unvaccinated person is 20 x more likely to pass on covid to others. Your viral loading is reduced due to vaccines thus you don’t pass it on as much.

It’s completely incorrect to say “ Your viral loading is reduced due to vaccines” and then go on to use this as evidence of likelihood of vaccinated vs unvaccinated passing in the virus.

Roadkill….genuine question. Do you think that unvaccinated people should be excluded from society because they may allow a virus to mutate into more severe forms? Don’t you think this approach is discriminatory and extreme? The likelihood of this happening must be very small. Do you really believe that treating a sub section of society as pariahs on the basis that they MIGHT further the evolution of a virus is not an evil way to act?

Could you ask a more biased emotive bs question?

I believe everyone that can, should get vaxxed. However, it should not be compulsory. If someone choose not to get vaxxed there are consequences and certain activities are no longer open to them. Employers can terminate employees if employees choose to not get vaxxed.

A friend of mine only joined the police force last year and is currently on leave, so i can't help but think of her, and all the other officers who have dedicated their life to the force only to be treated like criminals. Thats 50 less officers on the streets protecting you and your family and the community.
https://www.6pr.com.au/wa-police-refusing-vaccination-will-face-discipl…
Each day i'm seeing more and more friends lose their jobs, here and interstate.
I work two jobs and in the next fortnight i'll be losing both of them due to the mandates. That means all the things i need to pay to survive on this planet are in jeopardy.
This is in a region where double vaxed are already well over 80percent, there's no covid and job losses from the lockdowns last year have been enormous.
Alot of people i know are trying to go bush, become self sustainable. The divide between vaxed and unvvaxed is growing stronger every day, you just have to look at this thread to see the pure vile hurled at those who refuse to get a vaccination that is still not mandatory by law.
The strange thing is, you don't see anyone hurling abuse at those who are vaxed. That's because there is a respect for personal choice.
No doubt what i will say will invoke fury in the usual suspects. Big deal. They're not the ones having to live through this situation of no jab no job. It's stressful, i wake up at night thinking, what the fuck am i gonna do??
But one thing i won't compromise is the right to say what does and doesn't go into my body, ESPECIALLY while it's still considered a trial medication, ESPECIALLY when it's completely new drugs, never trialled on humans before and ESPECIALLY when so many reports of vaccine injuries are now coming out.
And all along the numbers of this deadly virus just haven't added up. All along it's been obvious that unless you already have pre existing health conditions and are well into your twilight years, you're probably gonna be ok.
I know the angry mob are coming.
So i'll leave it at that. This thread has become too lopsided in the hatred and anger, which i unfortunately let get to me.
Do not trust the government and do not trust the media. Look with your own eyes at the segregation that now exists due to those two entities. They do not have our best interests at heart.

"only to be treated like criminals"

Aren't they on leave with full pay?

There's no excuse for anger and/or violence. But what I can say, is yeah no shit. The reality is sales / hospitality staff can face with violence and anger over lots of things regularly, so there's no need to polarise it over this issue but of course it is being polarised. Just another tool to tarnish those dangerous anti-vaxxers. That where ya going smiley?

Across my businesses I employ over 80 staff with many of them customer facing. Since this all started we've had to jump through hoop after hoop and have never had a problem.

But anger and violence can always be avoided by handling the situation.. Unfortunately its typically a righteous do-gooding staffer like a VL or a RK (you know the ones) that feel all authoritarian and want to dig in that pisses people off.

I mean welcome to the jungle. If ya gonna stand up for tyranny then ya gonna get some push back. What else can be said?

But all the best navigating your way through this difficult period BD.

I really do wish you all the best.

GuySmiley wrote:

Anyone care to comment on or attempt to defend the indefensible displays of anger and violence now being directed towards retail sales staff on a daily basis who are asking customers to prove their vaccination status?

My 18 year old daughter has a part time job at Coles....kook says to her "are you a fucking cunt?"
It's common and becoming more common..not only in regards to vax certs. The poor kids get abused all the time. People spit at them and chuck food on the ground if they don't get their way.

Roadkill wrote:

GuySmiley wrote:

Anyone care to comment on or attempt to defend the indefensible displays of anger and violence now being directed towards retail sales staff on a daily basis who are asking customers to prove their vaccination status?

My 18 year old daughter has a part time job at Coles....kook says to her "are you a fucking cunt?"

It's common and becoming more common..not only in regards to vax certs. The poor kids get abused all the time. People spit at them and chuck food on the ground if they don't get their way.

. That’s terrible and disgusting what’s happening to your daughter roadkill, I’m a bit confused though as I didn’t think coles , Woolworths, aldi had to ask for proof of vaccination as Ive never been asked. The only places Ive been asked are the non essential shops like big W , best and less , kmart etc .

Roadkill wrote:

GuySmiley wrote:

Anyone care to comment on or attempt to defend the indefensible displays of anger and violence now being directed towards retail sales staff on a daily basis who are asking customers to prove their vaccination status?

My 18 year old daughter has a part time job at Coles....kook says to her "are you a fucking cunt?"

It's common and becoming more common..not only in regards to vax certs. The poor kids get abused all the time. People spit at them and chuck food on the ground if they don't get their way.

. That’s terrible and disgusting what’s happening to your daughter roadkill, I’m a bit confused though as I didn’t think coles , Woolworths, aldi had to ask for proof of vaccination as Ive never been asked. The only places Ive been asked are the non essential shops like big W , best and less , kmart etc .

BD, jeez you must feel very strongly about not getting the vaccine if you're willing to sacrifice your job, your income and your livelihood. Is it really worth it?

I'm can sympathise with your daughter, Roadkill. My 16 year-old son works in IGA and he sometimes has to put up with irate, abusive customers who do not want to check in or wear a mask.

"But anger and violence can always be avoided by handling the situation.. Unfortunately its typically a righteous do-gooding staffer like a VL or a RK (you know the ones) that feel all authoritarian and want to dig in that pisses people off.

I mean welcome to the jungle. If ya gonna stand up for tyranny then ya gonna get some push back. What else can be said?"

Next level victim blaming there shortenism, and it certainly looks like you are excusing the special arseholes who don't think rules apply to them.

I pity your staff, and if they work in hospitality, they should walk and find a boss who will back them up,. Good money being paid for reliable people these days.

Supafreak wrote:

Roadkill wrote:

GuySmiley wrote:

Anyone care to comment on or attempt to defend the indefensible displays of anger and violence now being directed towards retail sales staff on a daily basis who are asking customers to prove their vaccination status?

My 18 year old daughter has a part time job at Coles....kook says to her "are you a fucking cunt?"

It's common and becoming more common..not only in regards to vax certs. The poor kids get abused all the time. People spit at them and chuck food on the ground if they don't get their way.

. That’s terrible and disgusting what’s happening to your daughter roadkill, I’m a bit confused though as I didn’t think coles , Woolworths, aldi had to ask for proof of vaccination as Ive never been asked. The only places Ive been asked are the non essential shops like big W , best and less , kmart etc .

This was to do with a mask when they were required....was an example for when I said "not only in regards to vax certs"

overthefalls wrote:

BD, jeez you must feel very strongly about not getting the vaccine if you're willing to sacrifice your job, your income and your livelihood. Is it really worth it?

Standing up for what is right. it takes HUGE courage. It's bigger than just taking the vaccine.

Although im not personally affected, i will protest for people like BD. We all stand together.

My 17 yr old daughter who works in health food shop has been harassed repeatedly.

The last time it happened, she called me in tears, and I went down the main street, found the perpetrators and offered them a very polite lesson in the local "jungle rules" as Shorto terms them.

Bonza, I actually once wrote a long-winded letter to Kevin Rudd about all this when he was prime minister. And I got a fairly respectful response which to this day I still personally believe he wrote himself.

The lady Dr Lisa Parker from the article makes some good suggestions (and she's playing a dangerous game by speaking out publicly about academia).

bonza wrote:

and this is not meant to be critical or nasty

I'd actually prefer people to be critical and dissect and debunk stuff I say, it's one thing I value about these forums, helps me question myself and my biases, and grow as a person

bonza wrote:

why are you so bitter towards the scientific establishment...perhaps you had one too many manuscript knocked back - are you over it

actually I was snapped up as the head mathematician for a hedge fund before I finished my phd, and I've been able to publish some nice papers, so no bitterness. I think I'm just trying to point out what I see as going wrong. I agree that I probably am coming across as bitter and negative

bonza wrote:

what's your solution gsco. you've been banging on about academia, scientific publishing and feeding the nutters

A really good example of what's going wrong is the last page or two in this thread (and I'm guilty of doing it too). Commentators here and even a Guardian article are debating two papers linked. Both papers are from https://www.medrxiv.org/ which is just a preprint server, so the papers are not peer-reviewed and likely haven't even been submitted to a journal yet. People can publish basically anything they want on a preprint server. Each article has the disclaimer:

Also, one of them is even funded by the Zuckerbergs:

And when you read the papers there is research design alarm bells, in particular very small sample sizes. Their results are basically meaningless and no wonder papers keep getting published that conflict and contradict each other.

So the media is debating non-peer-reviewed publications from a preprint service with conflicted funding sources and experimental design issues...! This is not research.

These points from Dr Lisa Parker in the Guardian article is relevant here:

Dr Lisa Parker wrote:

- lack of public access to high quality research

- make academic publishing more transparent by removing paywalls for access to research

She makes very good points. Unfortunately the media and public only have access to open-access research; most of this is junk, not research. Open access needs to be given to all research from all journals. Her other points are very good:

Dr Lisa Parker wrote:

.- Academic journals also needed to make comments from peer-reviewers – who scrutinise papers before they are published – public.

- Researchers should be mandated to register their studies including the study protocols, and should make any datasets that inform their findings public

Some other points I'd add:

There should be a global independent body - independent of governments, universities, industry, the media, etc - that reviews all research deemed "critical" to public health and wellbeing.

Research from private industry, for instance about vaccines from vaccine manufacturers, should never be relied upon, under any circumstance. This is no different to me walking into the Apple store and asking the salesperson if I should buy a new iPad...

The renumeration and career progression structure of academia needs to reward research outcomes less and encourage teaching quality more.

Actually, there needs to be a clear separation of research-only vs teaching-only academics, and there shouldn't be academics who do both unless a research academic expresses an explicit interest in teaching a course. This is because trying to do teaching and research at the same time leads to being overworked and overstretched, one's mind trying to be in two completely different head-spaces at the one time, and lower quality outcomes for both.

There is a culture in academia of looking down upon teaching-focused academics as though they are inferior, second rate humans. This culture needs to end.

If you walk through the isles of every university in Australia, you tell me the cultural makeup and national backgrounds of the academics. Unfortunately there is a problem in academia in Australia of hiring a very significant number of Chinese and Indian etc academics over Australians. The reality is that most of these academics are engaged in publishing poor quality research in poor quality journals, hence are significantly contributing to the very problems that Dr Lisa Parker mentions. Yet we the tax payer are paying huge money (academics get paid between $100k and $200k per yr) to hire these overseas academics to engage in and compound the very problems academia is facing. This is retarded.

I could go on and if I remember some other points I'll mention them.

Your overriding question was:

bonza wrote:

who should we trust? insta? no one? what do we do - just curl up in a ball and block everything out?

My approach is to just embrace not knowing and accept the fact that we the general public, ordinary people, are unable to verify for ourselves or be certain about 99% of what's coming out of academia and getting spammed in the media. It's not about blocking everything out, but in consciously knowing that we do not know.

I just try to focus on living a healthy lifestyle that I personally find meaningful and doing the things in life I find enjoyment in.

Something shortenism said in here to me maybe 6 or 9 months ago had a positive impact on me. Something along the lines of just stay calm, keep surfing and let it all blow over. I've very grateful for him saying this and it helped me when I was having a bit of a panic about the whole covid situation.

When I close the laptop lid and step outside, I realise everything is ok and there is a very big disconnect between the online world and reality.

I always think about a quote from the move The Thin Red Line:
There's only one thing a man can do - find something that's his, and make an island for himself.

overthefalls wrote:

I'm can sympathise with your daughter, Roadkill. My 16 year-old son works in IGA and he sometimes has to put up with irate, abusive customers who do not want to check in or wear a mask.

And it's not alway who you would expect abuse from. Older well dressed woman are common suspects..all socio economic groups. Older guys just say creepy sexual things to the younger girls. My daughter was most shocked at the way some mothers talk to and swear at their kids whilst in lines..with raised voices.

Roadkill wrote:

Supafreak wrote:

Roadkill wrote:

GuySmiley wrote:

Anyone care to comment on or attempt to defend the indefensible displays of anger and violence now being directed towards retail sales staff on a daily basis who are asking customers to prove their vaccination status?

My 18 year old daughter has a part time job at Coles....kook says to her "are you a fucking cunt?"

It's common and becoming more common..not only in regards to vax certs. The poor kids get abused all the time. People spit at them and chuck food on the ground if they don't get their way.

. That’s terrible and disgusting what’s happening to your daughter roadkill, I’m a bit confused though as I didn’t think coles , Woolworths, aldi had to ask for proof of vaccination as Ive never been asked. The only places Ive been asked are the non essential shops like big W , best and less , kmart etc .

This was to do with a mask when they were required....was an example for when I said "not only in regards to vax certs"

ok ok thanks for clearing that up , Aldi had security guards at both tweed outlets and then they disappeared, its a bit rough to expect young kids to police masks, vaccine status etc , some people simply take offence because a young person is questioning them . Store managers would be better suited not 16 -18 yo kids

gsco wrote:

Bonza, I actually once wrote a long-winded letter to Kevin Rudd about all this when he was prime minister. And I got a fairly respectful response which to this day I still personally believe he wrote himself.

The lady Dr Lisa Parker from the article makes some good suggestions (and she's playing a dangerous game by speaking out publicly about academia).

bonza wrote:

and this is not meant to be critical or nasty

I'd actually prefer people to be critical and dissect and debunk stuff I say, it's one thing I value about these forums, helps me question myself and my biases, and grow as a person

bonza wrote:

why are you so bitter towards the scientific establishment...perhaps you had one too many manuscript knocked back - are you over it

actually I was snapped up as the head mathematician for a hedge fund before I finished my phd, and I've been able to publish some nice papers, so no bitterness. I think I'm just trying to point out what I see as going wrong. I agree that I probably am coming across as bitter and negative

bonza wrote:

what's your solution gsco. you've been banging on about academia, scientific publishing and feeding the nutters

A really good example of what's going wrong is the last page or two in this thread (and I'm guilty of doing it too). Commentators here and even a Guardian article are debating two papers linked. Both papers are from https://www.medrxiv.org/ which is just a preprint server, so the papers are not peer-reviewed and likely haven't even been submitted to a journal yet. People can publish basically anything they want on a preprint server. Each article has the disclaimer:

Also, one of them is even funded by the Zuckerbergs:

And when you read the papers there is research design alarm bells, in particular very small sample sizes. Their results are basically meaningless and no wonder papers keep getting published that conflict and contradict each other.

So the media is debating non-peer-reviewed publications from a preprint service with conflicted funding sources and experimental design issues...! This is not research.

These points from Dr Lisa Parker in the Guardian article is relevant here:

Dr Lisa Parker wrote:

- lack of public access to high quality research

- make academic publishing more transparent by removing paywalls for access to research

She makes very good points. Unfortunately the media and public only have access to open-access research; most of this is junk, not research. Open access needs to be given to all research from all journals. Her other points are very good:

Dr Lisa Parker wrote:

.- Academic journals also needed to make comments from peer-reviewers – who scrutinise papers before they are published – public.

- Researchers should be mandated to register their studies including the study protocols, and should make any datasets that inform their findings public

Some other points I'd add:

There should be a global independent body - independent of governments, universities, industry, the media, etc - that reviews all research deemed "critical" to public health and wellbeing.

Research from private industry, for instance about vaccines from vaccine manufacturers, should never be relied upon, under any circumstance. This is no different to me walking into the Apple store and asking the salesperson if I should buy a new iPad...

The renumeration and career progression structure of academia needs to reward research outcomes less and encourage teaching quality more.

Actually, there needs to be a clear separation of research-only vs teaching-only academics, and there shouldn't be academics who do both unless a research academic expresses an explicit interest in teaching a course. This is because trying to do teaching and research at the same time leads to being overworked and overstretched, one's mind trying to be in two completely different head-spaces at the one time, and lower quality outcomes for both.

There is a culture in academia of looking down upon teaching-focused academics as though they are inferior, second rate humans. This culture needs to end.

If you walk through the isles of every university in Australia, you tell me the cultural makeup and national backgrounds of the academics. Unfortunately there is a problem in academia in Australia of hiring a very significant number of Chinese and Indian etc academics over Australians. The reality is that most of these academics are engaged in publishing poor quality research in poor quality journals, hence are significantly contributing to the very problems that Dr Lisa Parker mentions. Yet we the tax payer are paying huge money (academics get paid between $100k and $200k per yr) to hire these overseas academics to engage in and compound the very problems academia is facing. This is retarded.

I could go on and if I remember some other points I'll mention them.

Your overriding question was:

bonza wrote:

who should we trust? insta? no one? what do we do - just curl up in a ball and block everything out?

My approach is to just embrace not knowing and accept the fact that we the general public, ordinary people, are unable to verify for ourselves or be certain about 99% of what's coming out of academia and getting spammed in the media. It's not about blocking everything out, but in consciously knowing that we do not know.

I just try to focus on living a healthy lifestyle that I personally find meaningful and doing the things in life I find enjoyment in.

Something shortenism said in here to me maybe 6 or 9 months ago had a positive impact on me. Something along the lines of just stay calm, keep surfing and let it all blow over. I've very grateful for him saying this and it helped me when I was having a bit of a panic about the whole covid situation.

When I close the laptop lid and step outside, I realise everything is ok and there is a very big disconnect between the online world and reality.

I always think about a quote from the move The Thin Red Line:

There's only one thing a man can do - find something that's his, and make an island for himself.

excellent response and wholeheartedly agree with all of it. I have said similar albeit less articulately previously. The only thing I disagree with is your comment on short's statement to "stay calm". the statement is 100% true but the genuineness of how and when it was said is and was not. anti vaxxers and conspiracy nuts ( and i make a clear distinction here between the former and the covid vaccine hesitant or suspicious cautious etc) are anything but calm. when they tell you to be calm they are doing so from a position of fear and panic - that is the one thing along with several other traits that they share. Loss of control.
sticks out tits on a bull.

edit - i also broadly disagree with your sentiment that we unable to "verify for ourselves or be certain about 99%".
99% is pretty close to 100% so yeah we can never be 100% sure. But we can be pretty sure - again i have posted this previously.
time, review, light ,volume and robust critique allow this

Caught on camera
https://apple.news/AnJwQPYzARoKx4u4km4BhgA

My 16 year old son works in another Coles..he thinks the angry customers are hilarious...he can shrug it off and doesn't get concerned at all. Just cruises through the shifts.

Pretty good weekend money for school/uni kids and most of the time is a great place to work. My son loves weekend shifts..he wants to be a commercial hellicopter pilot...he has 12 hrs flying, can afford a lesson every 3/4 weeks. Pretty proud of him saving instead of wasting money like his mates do.

My 16 year old son works in another Coles..he thinks the angry customers are hilarious...he can shrug it off and doesn't get concerned at all. Just cruises through the shifts.

Pretty good weekend money for school/uni kids and most of the time is a great place to work. My son loves weekend shifts..he wants to be a commercial hellicopter pilot...he has 12 hrs flying, can afford a lesson every 3/4 weeks. Pretty proud of him saving instead of wasting money like his mates do.

gsco wrote:

The renumeration and career progression structure of academia needs to reward research outcomes less and encourage teaching quality more.

There is no doubt you're a mathematician! I think you mean remuneration? ;)
Good post!

Great post GSCO.

Superfreak I didn’t watch the clip but read his words . Yes all very bizarre

Good on you freeride! So you should. And maybe we should apply jungle rules to this whole pandemic while we're at it ei. Breath air, live free, tune into your environment, release the fear of the enemy, which cannot be seen or heard other than through the tv.

Looks like some naughty people won't even be getting a lump of coal from Santa this year ..
https://babylonbee.com/news/santa-to-replace-naughty-or-nice-list-with-…

excellent post gsco

as you point out, there is incredible pressure within these systems not to break ranks... often just good ol' peer pressure funny enough... amongst a heap of other pressures...

it is just plain ridiculous and insultung the picture some try to paint on here, of an education, science, and research establishment generally above these forces

(bloody laughable if you understand the theory that underpins the things they are often advocating...)

there is always bias, however the neoliberalisation of western institutions in particular has had proound effects. coupled with the overseas student meat grinder, it's a disaster...

funnily enough the 'public' many belittle, have seen and understood this for a long time, even if they cannot arriculate it

people like to blame everything on trump, and now the new proxies... 'conspiracy theorists' and anti-vaxxers... but really, the rise of all of these phenomena are a sympton of a system long corrupted... not the cause! ...blaming all modern woes on these symptons - as those accepting of the hegemony tend to do - just deflects, defers, and generally makes matters worse... not generally actually... most bloody definitely!

more crew need to speak up

not more conversations shut down

as gsco points out, being challenged and arguing the case is part of the process, or was...

What do people expect to happen when our community has been set up to fail by those in charge? You honestly didn’t foresee healthy citizens, who may have played by every single rule and moral obligation society has ever thrown at them, to remain calm at all times when ludicrous segregation policies are affected which exclude them from entire parts of society?

I don’t condone retail staff or employees feeling the brunt of the anger resulting from this irrational and politically motivated apartheid, but it was always going to happen. Our community has been wedged into this situation.

With 90% plus vaccination rates there is zero legitimate reason why society can’t function without restrictions. The apartheid has no scientific basis and many in the scientific community state that there is no justification for the medical apartheid. It is politics plain and simple. Any politicians toying with the freedom of Australian citizens in order to pander to a voter demographic need to be tied to an ants nest and covered in honey.

Prediction : Society allowed to reopen to the unvaccinated mid December purely to allow money to flow for Christmas. I imagine that restrictions will be reimposed after Chrissy holidays ( maybe mid February) in order to crank up the booster shot obligations. They might even put it off till after Easter so that spending happens and use the impending cooler weather as PANIC for booster requirements for all.

Justification for booster shots. You are being softened up. A new normal is being massaged into being.

SMH sub heading:
With the arrival of the Omicron variant, booster shots are looking more urgent. So, what side effects can you expect?

I believe there will be more pushback from normal everyday people about the boosters. Plenty of people have begrudgingly had the vax due to a variety of reasons, they feel they have complied and that should be that, but a booster will be the last straw. I'm hearing it from people I never expected it of.

fitzroy-21 wrote:

I believe there will be more pushback from normal everyday people about the boosters. Plenty of people have begrudgingly had the vax due to a variety of reasons, they feel they have complied and that should be that, but a booster will be the last straw. I'm hearing it from people I never expected it of.

For sure. Vaccination rates were sitting at below 30% before they started talk of coercion. No one gave a fuck about them. Vaccination rates didn’t take off until the reality of the apartheid was explained. Those figures are more accurate than any polling when it comes to establishing public enthusiasm for covid vaccines.

The majority of people just weren’t interested until the government forced them into getting it. Even then it was a case of “ You’re going to have to get it sooner or later” not a vibe of “ Well I was going to get it anyway “.

I’ve yet to meet a single person who is keen for a booster. It’s a bit of a line in the sand after everyone thought they could just appease the authoritarianism away.

Bullies never respect appeasement and our government is a bully.

Founder of anti-vax christian TV show dies after contracting covid

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-12-02/daystar-marcus-lamb-covid-death/…

Newsflash : SA records 18 new cases as outbreak grows from a reunion event.

Note, only vaccinated ppl attended the event...

fitzroy-21 wrote:

I believe there will be more pushback from normal everyday people about the boosters. Plenty of people have begrudgingly had the vax due to a variety of reasons, they feel they have complied and that should be that, but a booster will be the last straw. I'm hearing it from people I never expected it of.

The majority of people will listen to the science and get booster shots. I see plenty at my work that have had the booster. No big deal for 90% of the population, that will do the right thing.

Roadkill wrote:

No big deal for 90% of the population, that will do the right thing.

The right thing by who and what exactly?

gragagan wrote:

Founder of anti-vax christian TV show dies after contracting covid

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-12-02/daystar-marcus-lamb-covid-death/…

How many anti-vaxxers are now in heaven? Are they segregated??

suchas wrote:

gragagan wrote:

Founder of anti-vax christian TV show dies after contracting covid

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-12-02/daystar-marcus-lamb-covid-death/…

How many anti-vaxxers are now in heaven? Are they segregated??

Good question. Who's the doorman to heaven, St Peter? Maybe St Peter is an anti-vaxxer, whilst heaven is for vaxxed only.
Sounds like a good idea for a sit-com

fitzroy-21 wrote:

Roadkill wrote:

No big deal for 90% of the population, that will do the right thing.

The right thing by who and what exactly?

For everyone...even the unvaxxed benefit from the 90% of people that do the right thing.