Vic- You are still saying this "A short dignified gesture at the start of a sporting contest, " !

Why can't you understand that many people think it is disrespectful to make ANY political gesture during a national anthem . It is NOT dignified !!!!! Have you NOT heard people being asked to STAND for the national anthem ????

It is a tradition FFS .

Break with tradition at the G at your own peril . It is just not ( shouldn't) done and will NEVER be appreciated by normal people who are the majority . Any cause that tries to do this will take a step back .

"Why can't you understand that many people think it is disrespectful to make ANY political gesture during a national anthem . It is NOT dignified !!!!! Have you NOT heard people being asked to STAND for the national anthem ????"

exactly!

I think both acts are lame, tokenistic, and totally uninspiring... but here's vicvocal, once again... showing he has no idea...

you're messing with (and mixing) stuff that people feel very strongly about, as I said, I couldn't give a shit about either gesture, but a lot of people do... a lot... imposing... bullying actually... your little fetishised fervent religious gesture onto and above another gesture, and expecting no push back is just dumb...

all kinds of dumb

politically dumb at a minimum...

but it seems indoctrination and bullying to the point of submission is par for the course nowadays...

(and, just a little bit fascist-ic you might say...

might...)

A bit of black comedy ....... "wake up to yourself".
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Vic Local wrote:

"Of course you do, id. Surprise!"

Indo Dreaming is definitely in the "shut up darkie and be thankful for what you've got" corner. A short dignified gesture at the start of a sporting contest, saying racism will not be tolerated by our team, is just too much for him to cope with.

That above is not my view at all.

This below is.

indo-dreaming wrote:

No matter the cause or issue an expression or gesture such as this should be a choice and not forced onto someone or even made to feel bad or guilty if they don't participate.

Like i said that goes for singing a national anthem, or bowing a head in prayer or bending a knee for soldiers or racism or whatever, it should all be a choice and not forced on the player.

This is the problem when you bring politics and social issues into sports, on field it should be free of these things, off field players should be able to express themselves as they wish be it being a crazy Antifa member (that doesn't break the law), or super religious Christian or muslim that may not share beliefs most of us agree with, or whatever as long as it's legal. (kind of ties in with that Ruby league player, forgot his name)

Quite simply VL

Im the kind of person that look's past colour and see's people, you're the kind of person that looks past people and see's colours.

Strong views on the national anthem from non-upstanding undignified unappreciative disrespecter Phillip Adams:

"Advance Australia Fair? Oh dear. No amount of fiddling with the words can save it. Cursed be the name of its composer, the Scot Peter Dodds McCormick, who dashed it off in 1878. Of course any lyricist would have a problem with rhyming "Australia". As I've pointed out previously, Australia rhymes with failure, which though utterly appropriate, is hardly inspirational. (Readers have noted it also rhymes with genitalia - which is hardly helpful. And with dahlia and regalia. ditto.)"

Oh get real sypkan. Players aren't taking knees at the 20/20 World Cup during anthems and you fucking know it. Your "disrespecting the anthem" argument is a complete joke.
CSA said the team should make a gesture showing they appose racism and Quinten de Kok basically told them to fuck off.
You say you don't give a shit about the gesture but clearly that's complete bullshit.
"imposing... bullying... your little fasionista fervent religious gesture onto and above another..." Looks like you really do give a massive shit about people who make a gesture that shows they are opposed to racism.
sypkan. You've chucked the toys out of the cot because people show their support for anti-racism in sport. And you make up some completely bogus "respect the anthem" excuse for your position. I'm shocked you didn't start your rant with "I'm not a racist but..."

I really don't give a shit...

really really don't...

I actually think it is kinda cool, and cutting edge (was...) when one person does it / did it...

but mobs bullying dudes in a restaurant to submit to do it... not cool...

self important righteous upstarts in a sports team imposing their little ip fetish onto the rest of the team... not cool...

becoming mandatory (and somewhat tedious, boring and predictable...) at event after event... not cool...

bogan sports comentators getting their woke on, and endlessly rabbiting on about it on tv radio and internet for hours... days... months... on end... not cool...

at a minimum, it should have a shelf life... but the zealots have grabbed it with both hands, and will fight to the bitter bitter end, any dissidents that enjoy any independence of thought in the matter... not cool...

A lot people with a profile make public "gestures" against all sorts of things, especially when they feel pressured to do so for various reasons. Very few of them actually follow through or still have a proper understanding of what they're actually protesting. Take a knee , don't take a knee , I can't see it changing shit in real life . As for making people aware of the problem , ffs , the clueless aren't going to change their collective opinion over this sort of stuff. In fact it puts a lot of those who might be coming around straight back on the back foot.
This revolution won't be televised .

stop talking such sense tubeshooter

it's almost like you live in reality...

the age is postmodernism baby!

"self important righteous upstarts in a sports team imposing their little ip fetish onto the rest of the team... not cool..."
Whatever champ.
Professional athletes take knees to send messages to fans and players saying racism is unacceptable in their sport.
And I think you'll find that sports clubs and administrators (professional and amateur) typically have a zero tolerance policy for racists within a team. The last thing any club or league needs is some toxic fucker making life miserable for other players.
Anti racism in sports is not the sole domain of righteous upstarts. It's the norm and thank fuck for that.

and further to tubeshooter's points...

in andym's minefield podcast way back, about being woke and cancelled and stuff...

waleed ally made the point, ...after a rather waffling and contemplative discussion... that.... don't you want people to do the right thing with conviction? and by way of their own volition?

you know, actually believe in, and want to do the right thing...

rather than the contemporary culture of the dominating mob demanding ultimate submission?

because all you are getting is a public statement of compliance

pure lip service...

so so evident in this age of corporate wokism....

but I don't expect the indoctrinated to understsnd that... some of you clearly feel its a competition of sorts...

a tussle for power

of social media narrative control

or something...

key words...

power

control

ultimate submission

it's all sounding a bit...

""self important righteous upstarts in a sports team imposing their little ip fetish onto the rest of the team... not cool..."
Whatever champ.
Professional athletes take knees to send messages to fans and players saying racism is unacceptable in their sport.
And I think you'll find that sports clubs and administrators (professional and amateur) typically have a zero tolerance policy for racists within a team. The last thing any club or league needs is some toxic fucker making life miserable for other players.
Anti racism in sports is not the sole domain of righteous upstarts. It's the norm and thank fuck for that."

so there's been no in team battles over who wants to kneel?

well clearly there has been...

and so those that resist are clearly 'racist'?

...CCP?

china boy!

I was thinking fascist actually...

but if the cap fits

Slick's more of a Camel Clutch cat than a taking the knee dude. Say it Slick. People of the world and intelligent Americans unite!

As I have said , but Viclocal can't get, I am happy for anyone to take a knee to support BLM but definitely NOT during the paying of their national anthem .

Brutus and others claimed he was a racist as he was white .

Interesting that other lefties are now supporting De Kock .

Waleed

'Especially when it came out that he was just told on the way to the ground and all of that sort of stuff,' Aly told the program on Thursday night.

'I think that there's a thing that sport has to think about here, which is, it's one thing for sport to take a stand...

'It's another thing when you compel every player to take the same stand, especially when you compel them a couple of hours before a game.'

Aly said it was unfair of Cricket South Africa to spring the directive on players and that though he himself would have complied by taking the knee, he understands why de Koch took a defiant stand.

'There was no conversation and suddenly he's meant to process this and take on something that the game or Cricket South Africa and a statement that they want to make as his own personal one,' Aly continued.

'Yeah, if I was in his position, I'm taking the knee. But I can kind of understand why it would trip a wire.

'It's a really weird situation for a player to be in.'

Armstrong

He has backed down from his fiery rant and described de Koch's apology as 'incredible'.

'Full credit it to him for coming out with such a strong statement, really explaining what it was all about,' he said.

Earlier in the segment, Armstrong, a former AFL star, explained why he 'saw red' and reacted so strongly to the controversy a day earlier.

'I felt so visceral about the fact that this player was not going to take a knee in support of the Black Lives Matter movement,' he said,

'While I understand that it can be tokenistic for big sport to go out there and take a knee, but what are they really doing behind it?

'It still means a lot to see it. It means a lot to me. I feel it. And I felt myself getting more and more angry about this.'

Anyone else who bagged him yesterday willing to me man enough to back down ?

Another case of someone being treated unfairly for being white and male . It happens on this thread tooooo regularly . I have been accused of having a White mentality .

A former top healthcare executive in North Carolina was awarded $10 million in a 'reverse' discrimination lawsuit over his claim that he was unfairly fired because he is a white male, according to Winston-Salem Journal.

David Duvall, a former senior vice president of marketing and communication at Novant Health, sued the North Carolina-based company in 2019 after losing his job in July 2018 due to its campaign to diversify top execs. He said he was fired without warning or explanation (just days before reaching his five year work anniversary, a milestone that would have awarded him a higher severance payout than what he was given).

Winston-Salem Journal.

As I expected Vic . You are not man enough to admit , like other leftists have , a mistake .

You are giving leftists a bad name .

Funny isn't it Vic . No one is willing to back track and admit to making an obvious mistake like Mr Armstrong was willing to do ( I think Waleeds view forced him into it ) .

You wanted me to be man enough to admit an obvious mistake a while ago which I did .

You talk the talk but don't walk the walk .

Very poor form !!!!!! I knew others would be light weights but I expected better from you . Another mistake I have made .

"You are giving leftists a bad name ."

It's OK Hutchy, us leftists can bear it, being the original broad church and all.

"Interesting that other lefties are now supporting De Kock" "Waleed"

@Hutchy

It's interesting that Waleed can quite easily by defined as being conservative.
Actually from memory I think he even self-identifies as having definite conservative traits.

Hutchy I'd be interested to hear your definition of a "leftie".

I am sure you can Stu !

You have to bear it and I am sure are very used to it due it being done so regularly .

Very silly of me to think Vic would act differently . But I can also bear that .

Andy - Only Steve Price on the project is not left . Their token righty .

Waleed does probably have some conservative views due to his religion . His politics is LEFT .

I can't work out most lefties and would be be unable and/ or unwilling to define them .

You can give me your definition if you have one .

Muslims generally are conservatives, but ive never seen Waleed show any conservative views and ive been watching the project a lot lately.

If you were going to simplify leftist id say they have idealistic views on must things opossed to realistic views.

Hey Hutchy, I'm happy to admit that I got it wrong about the South African reason for taking a knee. Apparently it is to show support for the BLM movement. Will you admit the knee wasn't taken during the anthem. Will you also acknowledge that when only one person in a team refuses to make a gesture, it's pretty silly to accuse everyone else of being divisive. Seems like QDK realises he was the one who was being divisive and will now join the rest of his team.
On the other thread you said I was abusing de Kok. Just a flat out lie.
You don't have the moral high ground here.

Hutchy I'd be interested to hear your definition of a "leftie".
That's easy. It's anyone who believes the experts re global warming, and anyone who believes racism has no place in society.

I've heard Waleed say that he is a conservative rather than a progressive with regards to not making wholesale changes to society - he would prefer to let democracy work its course and, generally speaking, defend tradition until it becomes democratically unpalatable, whereby the executive and the rule of law push though changes.

He often comments on the importance of a cohesive society and shows deep reservations regarding cancel culture, woke culture and the performative and narcissistic nature of modern life.
From what I've heard he's not in favour of thoughtless mass immigration, claiming that you can't build a society based on differences, there has to be uniting characteristics for an organic society.

So already we have two ways in which, by definition, Waleed is conservative.

Indo that's a primary school-level definition of "leftist", can't you do a bit better??

Here're a few prompts -

Left wing views on collectivism vs. individualism
Left wing views on equality

Or what about this -

"Falsehood is implicit in ideology because, considering it is created by the ruling class, its purpose is to disguise exploitation and oppression."

Vic - As I said I don't really follow this issue . Can't even remember the Gridiron player whose name started with a K that maybe started all of this .

I haven't even read up De Kocks situation . Just saw the comments here yesterday criticising a white South African for not kneeling . As the big issue with me is doing it during a national anthem I said so clearly . You said it was ok on numerous posts .

I don't know when the team was asked to do it . I only read quickly the report on what Waleed and Thompson said which said De Koch was given an ultimatum hours before a game and they thought it unfair . I haven't read the apology or know what he said about his teammates .

I was mistaken with you abusing QDK . Sorry . Others were so I mistakenly put you in the same boat .

Also not trying to get any moral high ground . I just said I didn't like Brutus demanding an immediate answer from QDK and inferring he was a racist for being a white South African . I am glad that other leftists agreed with my views .

Andy - I am confused with some Leftist views on Climate Change( and as you read above on their views on racism ) .

Clooney tells us all to stop creating CO2 . He then flies into Australia ( Private Jet ) and rents the biggest mansion on the Gold Coast .

Kerry , the US Climate Car , owns two houses , six cars ,two boats and a private jet .

Gore, I read years ago, has one of the biggest CO2 footprints in the world .

Her Royal Hinges Markel tells us all about wanting privacy and how to act better for the worlds sake while trying to tarnish the royals .

I get so confused on what which message they want us to follow .

Hutchy, read a book (or three) and put this into practice in the real world.
You may well find out who's bullshitting you.

Who gives a fuck what celebs think??

Hutchy,
Mate, time to stop wading in to topics you admit you don't know much about. Can I suggest you read Michael Holding's "Why we kneel, how we rise". It's a great book and he gets the opinions of dozens of world class athletes. They tell their stories in detail.
The good thing about this book is that it shows a situation that is improving but is far from perfect. You might also look up the story of Carlos, Smith and Norman from the Mexico Olympics. They all paid a very high price for daring to support equality.
The treatment of Colin Kaepernick and Adam Goodes is recent history and shameful. The thing is, the usual suspects always have a bullshit excuse in their back pockets on why their treatment was acceptable. "CK disrespected the veterans", "Goodes deserves it because he threw an imaginary spier at the Carlton fans" etc etc. Read their stories and get back to us. I'm actually interested to see if you can see this issue from a different point of view.
I've seen racism in sport a few times and it's bloody devastating. Tough grown men in tears vowing never to play again. There has to be zero tolerance for this shit at clubs and the professional level. I'd suggest QDK has had a good think about his actions and now sees things from a different perspective.

Vic you say "Mate, time to stop wading in to topics you admit you don't know much about. "

Why ? Everyone else does it . Is it because in this circumstance I am right ?

As I said I am not keenly interested in these gestures that even Thompson said can be token . I have other things that I THINK are more important .

Just trying to be helpful as I do know what the G's response will be to them being done during our national anthem . I do know that calling someone racist just because they are white and before the whole story is out is unwise . Common sense goes a long way on most issues Vic.

Rubbish Hutchy,
Your first comment re taking a knee / QDK was complete rubbish, focussing on the National Anthem even when the gesture was not taken during the song. You then banged on about the hypothetical and highly unlikely situation of players doing an anti-racism gesture at the G during the anthem. Now you're saying "calling someone racist just because they are white and before the whole story is out is unwise" even though nobody has made any such claims.
Your entire rant is based on stuff that never happened or hypothetical situations that won't happen. FFS hutch, try and deal with reality rather than making up imaginary situations to get worked up about. Read the book I mentioned. Get a different perspective from actual events, not made up gibberish.

Think of it being more like a moments silence before the game. It's separate to the anthems

Sounds like he was just being a rebel about being given a team directive so suddenly. He has grown up in a mixed-race family

gragagan wrote:

Think of it being more like a moments silence before the game. It's separate to the anthems

Or a pre-season prayer. I've participated in plenty of those even though I'm a non-believer. It's about respecting your team mates and realising their faith is very important to them.

I meant more like the moments silence they do for someone (usually a former player) who has passed as a mark of respect

hey grangagan, I can't ever remember pre season prayers or tributes to newly departed players ever being disrespectful for the anthem or the troops. It's like there's two entirely different standards.
How's scumo saying politics and sport shouldn't mix? This is a bloke who visits change rooms, runs water for the teams, wears scarves, wanted to go to the footy instead or locking down, says up up sharks like a faux bogan, and hosts cricketers at Kirribilli House. What Scumo means is my politics and sports mix, yours don't.

Well I never. The venerable and beatific RGB in ideological harmony with a not exactly fellow traveller cultural progressive comrade of the liberal left - who is known to occasionally comment on these forums. Strange bedfellows?

Katie Couric, on the other hand, still agonising over her conflicting and irreconcilable roles of superstar journo and volunteer RGB publicist:

‘When asked by Couric how she feels about San Francisco 49ers quarterback Colin Kaepernick, and others athletes, refusing to stand for the anthem, Ginsburg replied, “I think it’s really dumb of them.”

“Would I arrest them for doing it? No,” Ginsburg elaborated. “I think it’s dumb and disrespectful. I would have the same answer if you asked me about flag burning. I think it’s a terrible thing to do, but I wouldn’t lock a person up for doing it. I would point out how ridiculous it seems to me to do such an act”. ‘

Earlier this week, Couric admitted that she omitted much of RBG's answer on Kaepernick during a 2016 interview. The full quote appears in print for the first time in her forthcoming book, and was included in a profile of Couric in The Cut by Rebecca Traister.
"It's contempt for a government that has made it possible for their parents and their grandparents to live a decent life," Ginsburg said, according to Couric's recording from the 2016 sitdown. "Which they probably could not have lived, in the places they came from … As they become older they realize that this was a youthful folly. And that's why education is important." 

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/katie-couric-book-rbg-colin-kaeperni…

You're right vic there is no disrespect

Vic - So you want me to prove you wrong . Your have such a thick skull .

To start this topic Brutus said -"Ok todays little snippet....Kwentin De Kock captain of South Africa T20 Cricket team refused to obey the South African Cricket board in taking a knee before the T20 game with the West Indies for BLM.......so he pulled out of the game and looks like the whole tournament , and now possibly ended his career......interesting he comes from Dutch/Afrikaans father...no mother and was brought up in rich Transvaal"

Follows up immediately with this -"So Quentin de Kock wouldn't bend the knee for BLM , has withdrawn from the team and looks like one of the best cricketers in the world , made a decision that ends his career......now that's standing up for what you believe , but why won't he talk about it?"

I followed with this "I am not really up with this bending the knee business .

It was , I believe , in support for BLM . I support the view to support this cause ..

In the US it caused a feeling that kneeling during the national anthem was a sign of disrespect to the country . I can understand that . I don't think it was successful causing attendances to football games to plummet .

It stopped ( or in not news now ) .

If Quentin de Kock refused to kneel in support for BLM during the playing of his countries national anthem he has my full support . The South African anthem changed after apartheid ended .

The cause of BLM can be supported without disrespecting one's country imo ."

This proves , imo but probably not to a thick head like you , that QDK whiteness was an issue , where he lived , what income his family had .

My comment clearly states that I did not know the exact details of what happened with QDK .

I only talked about what happened in the US when gridiron players knelt during the US national anthem . And it went down like a lead balloon .

Why do you insist on bull shitting when it so easy to prove you are WRONG .

If you took your advice and only commented on topics you really know SN would hardly hear from you at all . You are not a diplomate , a medical practitioner , a real-estate agent , an economist or a climate scientist .

You are good at maths and probably surfing - that's all .

Hutchy, they weren't kneeling during the anthem

Gragagan - I never said they were . I said "If Quentin de Kock refused to kneel in support for BLM during the playing of his countries national anthem " . I didn't fucken know as I have made clear to anyone that can read properly .

Please read the above again so you know what fucken happened . These are copied from previous posts . They are NOT made up in an attempt at distorting the fucken truth which Vic fucken made up .

I talked about what happened in the US . Then I said IF . I have said I did not know the details FFS .

Lilian Thuram has copped his fair share of racism on the pitch and has the odd word or two to say on the subject:

“The people who could help to change this mentality are the people — and players — who are not the victims of racism and discrimination.

“So the question is, why are players who are not black, or from certain religious backgrounds, or homosexual willing to take actions or positions against this issue? The problem with discrimination of all kinds is that when you are not a victim you tend to think it does not exist. But it is very easy to stop.
“For example, if a white football player walked off the field whenever a racist act is made against a black player, things would be solved very quickly indeed. Because football is a business — people would find solutions very quickly in that instance. But the problem is that we always think it is the victim of racism who should stand up.”

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news/lilian-thuram-intervi…

Some more history

indo-dreaming wrote:

Muslims generally are conservatives, but ive never seen Waleed show any conservative views and ive been watching the project a lot lately.

If you were going to simplify leftist id say they have idealistic views on must things opossed to realistic views.

Lol .....if you simplified the rights id, they create their own reality so as to crush the left ideals of equality for everyone, with their vision .." a few controlling the many...and using the old trickle down theory of eventually everyone will benefit from the right wing elite throwing a few crusts to us peasants!

I was thinking/talking more socially than economically, most of the world including muslims are socially conservatives.

"a few controlling the many" Is more a leftist ideal communism/socialism.

BTW. Equality of opportunity v's equality of outcome, is two different things, one favoured by the right one a pipe dream of the left.

Constance B Gibson wrote:

Actually Brutus, did you notice Jesus' t-shirt in my pic?

Anyway, did someone mention Jesus AND Marx?

Have a gander, brothers.

https://jesusfilms.blogspot.com/2011/03/revolutionary-jesus-pasolinis-go…

yeah Constance , that republican t-shirt......missed it ...what a a fantastic post on Pasolinis Film.....sometimes," I can't see the Forest for the trees.."" very interesting I will hunt down the film and give it a gander , thanx for that!
Also interesting Jesus as a Marxist....or is Marxism ripping off Jesus?