southernraw wrote:

andy-mac wrote:

Great to see this level of debate....

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CxRshoph-eW/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

Is that you @lowinfo??

Definitely indo!!

By giving preferential treatment and political rights to a specific racial group, The Voice is also not in the spirit of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.

Our political system is already in the spirit of the declaration.

@gsco , what do you believe you will lose if the yes vote gets up ?

gsco wrote:

By giving preferential treatment and political rights to a specific racial group, The Voice is also not in the spirit of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.

Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.

Our political system is already in the spirit of the declaration.

Here we go again...preferential privileged racial... pls take yr misinformation elsewhere

It's a solid step in the direction of losing everything western civilisation represents and has fought for: equality in freedom, liberty, opportunity, access and rights, with no preferential, unique or privileged treatment given to anyone of any background.

It’s a regression back towards the dark ages.

@gsco , so personally you will lose what exactly ? How will your life change ? When you wake up in the morning in 5 years time what will be so vastly different ?

harrycoopr][quote=fitzroy-21 wrote:

yes ive written papers and academic stuff published across the world...

Not that we needed it, but here is proof Harry is full of it. I haven’t giggled so much in a long time reading this piece of gold.

burleigh][quote=harrycoopr wrote:

fitzroy-21 wrote:

yes ive written papers and academic stuff published across the world...

Not that we needed it, but here is proof Harry is full of it. I haven’t giggled so much in a long time reading this piece of gold.

U poor demented fool burley... its no wonder u are the way u are

gsco wrote:

It's a solid step in the direction of losing everything western civilisation represents and has fought for: equality in freedom, liberty, opportunity, access and rights, with no preferential, unique or privileged treatment given to anyone of any background.

It’s a regression back towards the dark ages.

Lol... now i know yr joking... ok very funny!
Are u guys part of the Proud Boys? Certainly boys... what imaginations!!

I personally lose my place as having equal opportunity and (particularly political) rights with all other individuals in this country.

I see a particular group of people elevated above not just me but all other groups of people and individuals not in that elevated group.

I see individuals in that elevated group as having more political power and influence to me and being able to be more heard and make more representations to parliament than me and all other non-elevated individuals.

I see myself in an institutionally unfair and discriminated against position which is not in the spirit of our great land, the lessons of history, or our western heritage, particularly what was fought for in the enlightenment and French Revolution.

I see a situation starting to resemble political systems of the Middle Ages in which particular groups of people were elevated above the general population, with unfair, discriminatory and prejudiced results.

An advisory body for the people who first lived here... for millennia.
The people whose ancestors endured genocide to varying degrees and the worst sort of shit that could be thrown their way.
And yet they survived! Finally to be recognised... even celebrated by some. God knows Aussie tourism sells Aboriginal culture as a major drawcard. Can we have an advisory body and be recognised in the whiteys constitution... seeing as we were here first?
NOPE

gsco wrote:

I personally lose my place as having equal opportunity and (particularly political) rights with all other individuals in this country.

I see a particular group of people elevated above not just me but all other groups of people and individuals not in that elevated group.

I see individuals in that elevated group as having more political power and influence to me and being able to be more heard and make more representations to parliament than me and all other non-elevated individuals.

I see myself in an institutionally unfair and discriminated against position which is not in the spirit of our great land, the lessons of history, or our western heritage, particularly what was fought for in the enlightenment and French Revolution.

I see a situation starting to resemble political systems of the Middle Ages in which particular groups of people were elevated above the general population, with unfair, discriminatory and prejudiced results.

This costco... this is why yr a fool

quote=harrycoopr]

southernraw wrote:

andy-mac wrote:

Great to see this level of debate....

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CxRshoph-eW/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

Is that you @lowinfo??

[/quote]

Not indo. Giving off heavy burleigh vibes though. Nah, that's Brad Beaven, ice addict, and a well known gurning head in cooker circles. He spent most of the winter in a various Canberra carparks, freezing his arse off protesting against "the agenda", and/or whatever crackpot theory he felt the need to pontificate about. Many of those extreme conspiracy theory touting torched units have taken up the vote no cause of late, with gusto, as you can see.

Here's another of his greatest hits.

https://twitter.com/wheels002/status/1702843558603182468

gsco wrote:

It's a solid step in the direction of losing everything western civilisation represents and has fought for: equality in freedom, liberty, opportunity, access and rights, with no preferential, unique or privileged treatment given to anyone of any background.

It’s a regression back towards the dark ages.

WTF are you on about gsco?

(as I've said before, gsco, the age of reasoning came about in conjunction with 'western civilisation' looking at, and incorporating, philosophy, science and sociology from 'different' systems at the outreaches of various European colonies, and despite this early open-mindedness, never let go of God's might = Right... still does to some.  Late-Antiquity was an amazing time of idea-formation that was usurped by the churches, but led us to our 'western civilisation'..  who calls it the 'Dark Ages' anymore?  Pfft.)

Are you worshipping at the altar of base 10 mathematical rationalism gsco?
A world built on a foundation of banana-peeling mitts?  Applying this to softer sciences?  Decimalising people?

I'd have thought a pure-mathematician would know better.  Base 12 (dozens) battling with base 10 is what has made the mathematical world wonderous and interesting.

And it's why 11 and 12 have their own names, aren't called oneteen (one and ten) and twoteen, like the teen numbers - even the teens have weird names (not onety three, onety four) because a 'score' was deemed fashionable for a time, four and twenty and all that.

Nah, gsco, variety and messiness is good, mix it all up. Believe in humans, not systems.  Combine influences, like clocks (which challenge the hell out of our thinking as kids) & Julius Caesar calendars (fun mathematically, but you do end up with people saying shit like 'it's the first day of spring' based on a pretty numeric pattern, not the real world : P  )  

"A dozen eggs and a Coopers carton thanks!", mixtures of things that acknowledge 1/1, 1/2, 1/3, 1/4 should all be whole-number doable in the real world, and 1/5 is only marginally handy or adaptable, and laying that over a system acknowledging we seem to find the need to base our, completely arbitrary system, around the fact that we have 10 fingers (ugh!).

The idea of zero, infinity, pi, golden spirals & angles, (you could use a bit of golden mean in your politics and view of history gsco!) may be mostly about fundamentals, but how we interpret them, understand them and express them is totally made-up monkey-speak from Europe, Babylon, China, all over.

And doesn't it make the world of maths cool?  You wanna see a dexterous mathematical mind?  Chat with an old tradie that thinks, simultaneously, in meters, feet, inches, and mm - and uses gravity for verticals and the horizon and water-tubes for horizontals.  Or just guesses based on life-long practical experience.

(We needed a common system to take maths further than walls and jambs, and we have, with a flawed, messy crazy mixed-up melange of ideas.  And haven't we come far together?)

And imagine a world where the disciplines truly mix?  A world unquantifiable... (that must terrify you, and send you into jingoistic nautilus spirals, hehe).

gsco wrote:

I personally lose my place as having equal opportunity and (particularly political) rights with all other individuals in this country.

I see a particular group of people elevated above not just me but all other groups of people and individuals not in that elevated group.

I see individuals in that elevated group as having more political power and influence to me and being able to be more heard and make more representations to parliament than me and all other non-elevated individuals.

I see myself in an institutionally unfair and discriminated against position which is not in the spirit of our great land, the lessons of history, or our western heritage, particularly what was fought for in the enlightenment and French Revolution.

I see a situation starting to resemble political systems of the Middle Ages in which particular groups of people were elevated above the general population, with unfair, discriminatory and prejudiced results.

I must say gsco you have blown my mind with your reply. I don’t know if you’re serious or not . If you’re serious then thanks for openly expressing your feelings and thoughts and maybe think about a surfing holiday off the grid .

No worries supa. But I’m sorry, it’s just not fair - in fact it’s legally institutionalised discrimination and goes against everything western civilisation stands for and has fought to prevent - that anyone, no matter who they are, be given legally codified (in the constitution) privileged and elevated rights in society compared to anyone else, no matter who they are. We are all born equal.

Ok! Qldurrz apologized for Dementor Voldemort.
Now we deliver The Voice in all it's Glory!

1st Female Indigenous LP
1962 1st Australian Stereo LP & Australian Made by Crest Records Hi Fi.
Who here could've Imagined that...5 years before 1967 Referendum!
Don't that beat all ~ Dedicated to the Dreamers!
14th Aug 2023 Last original copy sold for $500 (Already 60 in the cue for next sale)
https://www.discogs.com/release/9477375-Georgia-Lee-Georgia-Lee-Sings-T…
https://aso.gov.au/titles/music/georgia-lee-sings-the-blues/

https://www.womenaustralia.info/leaders/biogs/WLE0095b.htm

harrycoopr wrote:

gsco wrote:

I personally lose my place as having equal opportunity and (particularly political) rights with all other individuals in this country.

I see a particular group of people elevated above not just me but all other groups of people and individuals not in that elevated group.

I see individuals in that elevated group as having more political power and influence to me and being able to be more heard and make more representations to parliament than me and all other non-elevated individuals.

I see myself in an institutionally unfair and discriminated against position which is not in the spirit of our great land, the lessons of history, or our western heritage, particularly what was fought for in the enlightenment and French Revolution.

I see a situation starting to resemble political systems of the Middle Ages in which particular groups of people were elevated above the general population, with unfair, discriminatory and prejudiced results.

This costco... this is why yr a fool

This is pure Trumpism... pure "poor fella me whitey" pure "our system is the greatest so assimilate everyone else" pure crap sorry to say

gsco wrote:

No worries supa. But I’m sorry, it’s just not fair - in fact it’s legally institutionalised discrimination and goes against everything western civilisation stands for and has fought to prevent - that anyone, no matter who they are, be given legally codified (in the constitution) privileged and elevated rights in society compared to anyone else, no matter who they are. We are all born equal.

It's an ADVISORY body u turnip... pls stop now before embarrassing yourself any further

gsco wrote:

No worries supa. But I’m sorry, it’s just not fair - in fact it’s legally institutionalised discrimination and goes against everything western civilisation stands for and has fought to prevent - that anyone, no matter who they are, be given legally codified (in the constitution) privileged and elevated rights in society compared to anyone else, no matter who they are. We are all born equal.

But have we all been treated equally ?

gsco wrote:

I personally lose my place as having equal opportunity and (particularly political) rights with all other individuals in this country.

I see a particular group of people elevated above not just me but all other groups of people and individuals not in that elevated group.

I see individuals in that elevated group as having more political power and influence to me and being able to be more heard and make more representations to parliament than me and all other non-elevated individuals.

I see myself in an institutionally unfair and discriminated against position which is not in the spirit of our great land, the lessons of history, or our western heritage, particularly what was fought for in the enlightenment and French Revolution.

I see a situation starting to resemble political systems of the Middle Ages in which particular groups of people were elevated above the general population, with unfair, discriminatory and prejudiced results.

So communism is the solution then we are all equal...
Heaps of people in Oz being in an elevated group due to their wealth, power and influence.
Groups that have access to pollies, IPA, BCA, MCA etc etc.....
Geez even Alan Joyce giving out members lounge has more privileges than you or me...

Supafreak wrote:

gsco wrote:

No worries supa. But I’m sorry, it’s just not fair - in fact it’s legally institutionalised discrimination and goes against everything western civilisation stands for and has fought to prevent - that anyone, no matter who they are, be given legally codified (in the constitution) privileged and elevated rights in society compared to anyone else, no matter who they are. We are all born equal.

But are we all treated equally ?

Supa yr a lot more civil than I am but ive been dealing with this reverse racist shit for years..."legally institutionalised discrimination"... sorry but u cant rationally engage with these kinds of Bevans... it's impossible. They live in an alternative universe of which they are the centre.

gsco wrote:

No worries supa. But I’m sorry, it’s just not fair - in fact it’s legally institutionalised discrimination and goes against everything western civilisation stands for and has fought to prevent - that anyone, no matter who they are, be given legally codified (in the constitution) privileged and elevated rights in society compared to anyone else, no matter who they are. We are all born equal.

House of Lords?

Fliplid wrote:

@indo and Supa is that list of membership for the Voice fact or idea? This article would suggest it is just someones idea

“iii. the Parliament shall, subject to this Constitution, have power to make laws with respect to matters relating to the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice, including its composition, functions, powers and procedures.”

“But clause (iii) clearly empowers future governments to fiddle with the Voice's composition, powers and procedures. So a hostile future government could, say, reduce the membership of the Voice to one person, and park that person in a windowless room in Canberra without an internet connection, or take every recommendation from the Voice and file it straight into the recycling.”

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-03/voice-referendum-vote-on-92-word…

I reckon most of what is being said, from both sides, is pure speculation in an effort to sway the vote one way or the other, and it is easy to just jump on board with the argument that aligns with one’s belief, regardless of any truth to that argument.

In a nutshell, the composition of the Voice, it’s allocated funding etc haven’t even been decided yet and when it comes to deciding, it will be up to the parliament to vote and decide how it is done.

Yep 100% i mentioned that in my post, although many articles from mainstream media have thrown out structure and numbers as if this is what it will be.

While yes this structure/design like number of seats etc is based on ideas from USFTH and from Langton report, its actually up to the government to decided.

Thats why its such a sign up now figure out the detail latter deal, and that detail isnt minor its actually really important aspects, so many un answered question's that won't be answered until after the vote in the unlikely event the result is a yes that is.

.

gsco wrote:

I personally lose my place as having equal opportunity and (particularly political) rights with all other individuals in this country.

I see a particular group of people elevated above not just me but all other groups of people and individuals not in that elevated group.

I see individuals in that elevated group as having more political power and influence to me and being able to be more heard and make more representations to parliament than me and all other non-elevated individuals.

I see myself in an institutionally unfair and discriminated against position which is not in the spirit of our great land, the lessons of history, or our western heritage, particularly what was fought for in the enlightenment and French Revolution.

I see a situation starting to resemble political systems of the Middle Ages in which particular groups of people were elevated above the general population, with unfair, discriminatory and prejudiced results.

gsco wrote:

No worries supa. But I’m sorry, it’s just not fair - in fact it’s legally institutionalised discrimination and goes against everything western civilisation stands for and has fought to prevent - that anyone, no matter who they are, be given legally codified (in the constitution) privileged and elevated rights in society compared to anyone else, no matter who they are. We are all born equal.

100%

Realistically in some ways its about a 50 to 60 years step backwards, but like we are in a parallel universe.

I actually find if bizarre and baffling that so called progressives are the ones wanting a new separation, that in a sense would undo so much progress made.

Thank god that it seems that the majority of Australians are viewing things as we are though.

indo-dreaming wrote:

gsco wrote:

No worries supa. But I’m sorry, it’s just not fair - in fact it’s legally institutionalised discrimination and goes against everything western civilisation stands for and has fought to prevent - that anyone, no matter who they are, be given legally codified (in the constitution) privileged and elevated rights in society compared to anyone else, no matter who they are. We are all born equal.

100%

Realistically in some ways its about a 50 to 60 years step backwards, but like we are in a parallel universe.

I actually find if bizarre and baffling that so called progressives are the ones wanting a new separation, that in a sense would undo so much progress made.

Thank god that tit seems that the majority of Australians are viewing things as we are though.

@indo and how will your life change if the yes vote does get up ? How different will your life be in 5 years time ? What will you have lost in your standard of living and what opportunities will be lost for you because of FNP having a voice to parliament that is an advisory body not a law making body .

@Supafreak

Why are you asking the exact same questions, this has all been already answered in detail before

harrycoopr wrote:

Supafreak wrote:

gsco wrote:

No worries supa. But I’m sorry, it’s just not fair - in fact it’s legally institutionalised discrimination and goes against everything western civilisation stands for and has fought to prevent - that anyone, no matter who they are, be given legally codified (in the constitution) privileged and elevated rights in society compared to anyone else, no matter who they are. We are all born equal.

But are we all treated equally ?

Supa yr a lot more civil than I am but ive been dealing with this reverse racist shit for years..."legally institutionalised discrimination"... sorry but u cant rationally engage with these kinds of Bevans... it's impossible. They live in an alternative universe of which they are the centre.

@harry , I understand your frustration and you come on here to vent that frustration. I liked some of blowins input on some topics but sometimes he really got carried away with shit and was over the top . I’m certainly not going to tell you how to reply, I like a lot of the things you’ve brought to the discussion and if you’ve gotta express yourself the way you do so be it . I also like some of the things sypkan brings up and I’m really interested in reading most people’s thoughts, ideas and responses. It’s a forum with a wide variety of interesting characters and I like it warts and all . I do get frustrated sometimes also and at those times I just don’t post for awhile. Hope you’re getting some waves wherever you are . I’m moving back to indo in 6 months time , taking a few years off and just going to live a simple life for awhile and look after my health and make the most of surfing while I’m still young enough……can’t wait .

indo-dreaming wrote:

@Supafreak

Why are you asking the exact same questions, this has all been already answered in detail before

Exact same questions ? Really ? Think I must be getting dementia. Can you tell me page number please.

Supafreak wrote:

indo-dreaming wrote:

@Supafreak

Why are you asking the exact same questions, this has all been already answered in detail before

Exact same questions ? Really ? Think I must be getting dementia. Can you tell me page number please.

Okay to be fair not exact question as in words but pretty much the same premise especially this idea of lost that's been dealt with, the question about effect on me is irrelevant, its about much bigger more important aspects.

These important aspects have been highlighted on the last two pages.

GSCO has highlighted the morally wrong and democratically wrong aspects and Frog on the other page has highlighted how its more really a vehicle for activist understanding these points is important.

The article i cut and pasted yesterday also highlights other very important aspects.

Its also been highlighted many times how its just not true that indigenous people dont have a voice or aren't consulted, not that anyone would really care if the voice was in legislation only.

The problem of course is putting it in the constitution, and how it would be used and abused.

Again see article i cut and pasted yesterday.

Basically its all been said before.

indo-dreaming wrote:

Thats why its such a sign up now figure out the detail latter deal, and that detail isnt minor its actually really important aspects, so many un answered question's that won't be answered until after the vote in the unlikely event the result is a yes that is.

.

After more than 100 years since the Constitution was written there’s still no details about tax rates in it, only the power to make laws to tax people, surely that’s got to tell you something about how it all works. Working out details for different laws and agencies happens regularly so it isn’t as big a deal as it is being made out to be, actually, it’s just the normal functioning of government. As you say, it’s up to Parliament to decide so there’s no slight of hand in play here

Basically, this idea of no details about the Voice is nothing more than a Furphy

How about we stick to here & now > Finest example Oz money & people can buy!
Don't knock yerselves out...We know exactly how long & what cost any Voice Motion will take.
Oz bureaucracy has a way of embarrassing ourselves either way but all ignore the sad truth.
This be the real underlying reason we can't progress as a Nation.
Wind down yer windows & Watch the World pass us by...

$450m AEC Example..
18 July 2023 ~ Rich White Aussie Technocrats download [YES] V [NO] Toilet paper Rolls.
11th Sept AEC First Nation Booklet Deadline (2 weeks before Aborigines Vote on 25th Sept)
D Day + $450m + 100,000 Staff AEC only managed 7 First Languages Booklets of promised 20.
Ya see folks...AEC can provide copies direct to the Indian Moon Landing but not to our Mob.

Also notice...outside this tiny box...not one Aussie could give a shit about that! Ask! Look around! Huh!

17th Sept Already 6 days too late ...AEC can only manage 8 / 20 (1999) Language Count.
https://www.aec.gov.au/About_AEC/Translated_information/#download
Crew may recall tbb's Reffo Table of Price matching & why it's now essential reading...
tbb 10 Aug : https://www.swellnet.com/comment/911664
1999 in 2023 Reffo = $10/vote > 20/20 First Nation got Booklets
2023 Reffo = $20/vote = 8/20 First Nation got Booklets
(It's that simple!)

Voice can only work if Govt halves the communication cost.
All can see Internet / Computers / Fax / Copiers / Mobile Devices have doubled the cost! (But How?)

Now need $1b + 88 days to reach 20 / 250 Mob Languages to agree to any motion of any Voice!
Q : Just how many motions are Aussies expecting The Voice to reach each year?
A : 2023 We can't even afford 8 languages of Minimum 20 of 250 Languages of 800 dialects.
Reckon it would cost Govt / AEC $5b to inform All first Nation to vote for first Voice Motion.
We all know technology is not the real villain...but if we remove the Dead Wood!
[yes] [no] All agree to that being the Elephant in the Room!

Example : 2023 Swiss Reffo/s Cost $45.3m / 10m Votes or $4.50 vote (vs) Oz - AEC $20/vote
Swiss Reffo cost is roughly locked at 1972 Oz Price in 2023 (How can they do that & not us?)
All here know how...need not ask non voting tbb to answer that...bloody well refuse to answer!

tbb thinks once Oz can match universal Vote cost then & only then will we naturally afford change!
AEC scrutinizing Dick Pics is the biggest obstacle to change & why Oz ain't singing with one Voice!

Supafreak wrote:

harrycoopr wrote:

Supafreak wrote:

gsco wrote:

No worries supa. But I’m sorry, it’s just not fair - in fact it’s legally institutionalised discrimination and goes against everything western civilisation stands for and has fought to prevent - that anyone, no matter who they are, be given legally codified (in the constitution) privileged and elevated rights in society compared to anyone else, no matter who they are. We are all born equal.

But are we all treated equally ?

Supa yr a lot more civil than I am but ive been dealing with this reverse racist shit for years..."legally institutionalised discrimination"... sorry but u cant rationally engage with these kinds of Bevans... it's impossible. They live in an alternative universe of which they are the centre.

@harry , I understand your frustration and you come on here to vent that frustration. I liked some of blowins input on some topics but sometimes he really got carried away with shit and was over the top . I’m certainly not going to tell you how to reply, I like a lot of the things you’ve brought to the discussion and if you’ve gotta express yourself the way you do so be it . I also like some of the things sypkan brings up and I’m really interested in reading most people’s thoughts, ideas and responses. It’s a forum with a wide variety of interesting characters and I like it warts and all . I do get frustrated sometimes also and at those times I just don’t post for awhile. Hope you’re getting some waves wherever you are . I’m moving back to indo in 6 months time , taking a few years off and just going to live a simple life for awhile and look after my health and make the most of surfing while I’m still young enough……can’t wait .

Where ya basing yourself Supa?
Sounds like a good plan!!!

indo-dreaming wrote:

gsco wrote:

I personally lose my place as having equal opportunity and (particularly political) rights with all other individuals in this country.

I see a particular group of people elevated above not just me but all other groups of people and individuals not in that elevated group.

I see individuals in that elevated group as having more political power and influence to me and being able to be more heard and make more representations to parliament than me and all other non-elevated individuals.

I see myself in an institutionally unfair and discriminated against position which is not in the spirit of our great land, the lessons of history, or our western heritage, particularly what was fought for in the enlightenment and French Revolution.

I see a situation starting to resemble political systems of the Middle Ages in which particular groups of people were elevated above the general population, with unfair, discriminatory and prejudiced results.

gsco wrote:

No worries supa. But I’m sorry, it’s just not fair - in fact it’s legally institutionalised discrimination and goes against everything western civilisation stands for and has fought to prevent - that anyone, no matter who they are, be given legally codified (in the constitution) privileged and elevated rights in society compared to anyone else, no matter who they are. We are all born equal.

100%

Realistically in some ways its about a 50 to 60 years step backwards, but like we are in a parallel universe.

I actually find if bizarre and baffling that so called progressives are the ones wanting a new separation, that in a sense would undo so much progress made.

Thank god that it seems that the majority of Australians are viewing things as we are though.

No worries Pauline

@gsco Industry lobbyists have direct access to parliamentarians and exert influence well above what the ‘one person one vote’ mantra implies they should have

Every day these lobbyists have a level of access to parliamentarians that isn’t available to ordinary Australian’s, and make representations to those parliamentarians that are in their clients interests whether they suit Australia’s or not and many times policies based on those representations are implemented by parliament. They might not have the Constitutional right but I’d say it is definitely an implied right that is granted with gusto

Now we’re being told that it is against all ideas of fairness that one group of people aren’t allowed the same access that is being afforded to these industry lobbyists.

andy-mac wrote:

Supafreak wrote:

harrycoopr wrote:

Supafreak wrote:

gsco wrote:

No worries supa. But I’m sorry, it’s just not fair - in fact it’s legally institutionalised discrimination and goes against everything western civilisation stands for and has fought to prevent - that anyone, no matter who they are, be given legally codified (in the constitution) privileged and elevated rights in society compared to anyone else, no matter who they are. We are all born equal.

But are we all treated equally ?

Supa yr a lot more civil than I am but ive been dealing with this reverse racist shit for years..."legally institutionalised discrimination"... sorry but u cant rationally engage with these kinds of Bevans... it's impossible. They live in an alternative universe of which they are the centre.

@harry , I understand your frustration and you come on here to vent that frustration. I liked some of blowins input on some topics but sometimes he really got carried away with shit and was over the top . I’m certainly not going to tell you how to reply, I like a lot of the things you’ve brought to the discussion and if you’ve gotta express yourself the way you do so be it . I also like some of the things sypkan brings up and I’m really interested in reading most people’s thoughts, ideas and responses. It’s a forum with a wide variety of interesting characters and I like it warts and all . I do get frustrated sometimes also and at those times I just don’t post for awhile. Hope you’re getting some waves wherever you are . I’m moving back to indo in 6 months time , taking a few years off and just going to live a simple life for awhile and look after my health and make the most of surfing while I’m still young enough……can’t wait .

Where ya basing yourself Supa?

Sounds like a good plan!!!

For sure... do it while yr young cos getting older ain't no joke... look at my grumpy old man antics

Fliplid wrote:

@gsco Industry lobbyists have direct access to parliamentarians and exert influence well above what the ‘one person one vote’ mantra implies they should have

Every day these lobbyists have a level of access to parliamentarians that isn’t available to ordinary Australian’s, and make representations to those parliamentarians that are in their clients interests whether they suit Australia’s or not and many times policies based on those representations are implemented by parliament. They might not have the Constitutional right but I’d say it is definitely an implied right that is granted with gusto

Now we’re being told that it is against all ideas of fairness that one group of people aren’t allowed the same access that is being afforded to these industry lobbyists.

Yr on the money Fliplid... why cant these Proud Boys see this???

Supafreak wrote:

gsco wrote:

I personally lose my place as having equal opportunity and (particularly political) rights with all other individuals in this country.

I see a particular group of people elevated above not just me but all other groups of people and individuals not in that elevated group.

I see individuals in that elevated group as having more political power and influence to me and being able to be more heard and make more representations to parliament than me and all other non-elevated individuals.

I see myself in an institutionally unfair and discriminated against position which is not in the spirit of our great land, the lessons of history, or our western heritage, particularly what was fought for in the enlightenment and French Revolution.

I see a situation starting to resemble political systems of the Middle Ages in which particular groups of people were elevated above the general population, with unfair, discriminatory and prejudiced results.

I must say gsco you have blown my mind with your reply. I don’t know if you’re serious or not . If you’re serious thanks for openly expressing your feelings and thoughts and maybe think about a surfing holiday off the grid .

Plus one Supa. Hope you're doing well @gsco. Always enjoyed our correspondence.
Definitely reckon a surf trip or some time away from the worlds problems (perceived or real) is always a good way to reset, and see the bigger picture.
The only real problems are the ones right in front of us to deal with each day, the rest is all opinions and heresay...powers greater than us anyway so may as well go surfing and just have the odd bit of banter and pontification on SN.
Take care mate.

Fliplid wrote:

indo-dreaming wrote:

Thats why its such a sign up now figure out the detail latter deal, and that detail isnt minor its actually really important aspects, so many un answered question's that won't be answered until after the vote in the unlikely event the result is a yes that is.

.

After more than 100 years since the Constitution was written there’s still no details about tax rates in it, only the power to make laws to tax people, surely that’s got to tell you something about how it all works. Working out details for different laws and agencies happens regularly so it isn’t as big a deal as it is being made out to be, actually, it’s just the normal functioning of government. As you say, it’s up to Parliament to decide so there’s no slight of hand in play here

Basically, this idea of no details about the Voice is nothing more than a Furphy

I do understand thats often how it works on constitution things, but on this issue for most people that approach just isn't going to cut it, even if this was just about an advisory body it still wouldn't be enough.

Which of course for anyone that has read the USFTH one page, other pages, related docs and then listened to what those involved have been saying in the past, voice is only one aspect of a much bigger activist picture.

Fliplid, lobby groups aren't permanent advisory bodies legally codified in the constitution and given public taxpayer funding.

And FNPs already have equal freedom, rights and opportunity to set up their own lobby groups.

Equal treatment is fundamental to what it means to be Australian. The Voice is directly at odds with this basic tenet of western civilisation.

@andy-mac , my base will be lembongan, 1 month trips away east and west with mates 3 or 4 times a year. Getting a C317 visa which gives me 2 years initially. Haven’t planned past that yet . … @ harrycoopr I can relate to the grumpy old man antics .

gsco wrote:

Fliplid, lobby groups aren't permanent advisory bodies legally codified in the constitution and given public taxpayer funding.

And FNPs already have equal freedom, rights and opportunity to set up their own lobby groups.

Equal treatment is fundamental to what it means to be Australian. The Voice is directly at odds with this basic tenet of western civilisation.

FNP are playing catch up on the equal treatment and they might just have some great ideas at how they can lift themselves up to achieve this .

indo-dreaming wrote:

Fliplid wrote:

indo-dreaming wrote:

Thats why its such a sign up now figure out the detail latter deal, and that detail isnt minor its actually really important aspects, so many un answered question's that won't be answered until after the vote in the unlikely event the result is a yes that is.

.

After more than 100 years since the Constitution was written there’s still no details about tax rates in it, only the power to make laws to tax people, surely that’s got to tell you something about how it all works. Working out details for different laws and agencies happens regularly so it isn’t as big a deal as it is being made out to be, actually, it’s just the normal functioning of government. As you say, it’s up to Parliament to decide so there’s no slight of hand in play here

Basically, this idea of no details about the Voice is nothing more than a Furphy

I do understand thats often how it works on constitution things, but on this issue for most people that approach just isn't going to cut it, even if this was just about an advisory body it still wouldn't be enough.

Which of course for anyone that has read the USFTH one page, other pages, related docs and then listened to what those involved have been saying in the past, voice is only one aspect of a much bigger activist picture.

Scared aint ya Pauline

gsco wrote:

Fliplid, lobby groups aren't permanent advisory bodies legally codified in the constitution and given public taxpayer funding.

And FNPs already have equal freedom, rights and opportunity to set up their own lobby groups.

Equal treatment is fundamental to what it means to be Australian. The Voice is directly at odds with this basic tenet of western civilisation.

100% wrong

I don’t know why some people believe the voice is divisive, it has united hanson and abbott and didn’t one get the other jailed years ago ? Now there’s a marriage made in heaven .

Supafreak wrote:

I don’t know why some people believe the voice is divisive, it has united hanson and abbott and didn’t one get the other jailed years ago ? Now there’s a marriage made in heaven .

Lol...classic. Old Onion Abbott. Gee these rightwingers are an embarrassing lot. Love to see the voice get up and watch all th Paulines on here fret about their equality disappearing... what a laff. In the meantime I'll stay grumpy i guess

gsco wrote:

Fliplid, lobby groups aren't permanent advisory bodies legally codified in the constitution and given public taxpayer funding.

And FNPs already have equal freedom, rights and opportunity to set up their own lobby groups.

Equal treatment is fundamental to what it means to be Australian. The Voice is directly at odds with this basic tenet of western civilisation.

There's no point to being indigenous lobby groups because they already have much more than that in things like NIAA and Coalition peaks and of course a Minister of indigenous affairs.

They are actually already the most represented, recognised and tax payer funded group in Australia

gsco, Whether they, the industry lobbyists, are permanent advisory bodies or not, they still have a level of access to parliamentarians that far exceeds other Australians which I thought, maybe mistakenly, was your original point, that being, one group of people having more rights and influence than others which as you say is against the idea of equal rights.

Seems a bit flippant though to single out the Voice as tearing down the tenants of western civilization and not the other lobbyists who, for example, are enthusiastically convincing government to buy billions of dollars worth of weapons

Although not directly taxpayer funded, the cost of hiring a lobbyist is quite likely booked as an expense so a tax deduction is given which is a loss of tax revenue, for what benefit? Effectively the tax payer is losing tax revenue so a company or industry can have privileged access to government, ongoing, in perpetuity. I’ve no idea what a lobbyist is worth but probably not cheap and there’s plenty of them

I agree with what you say about FNPs rights and opportunities etc, I have indigenous family who are doing okay. However I still think there is scope for assistance to some in marginalized communities. If a young kid grows up in a dysfunctional household or community with no proper care or guidance, what kind of life can they reasonably expect? Do we let them rot or try and lift them up?

Personally I think the Voice shouldn’t be in the Constitution but there still needs to be something to push along the process of getting those that need assistance onto an even footing or, as they say, closing the gap, The whole debate is focusing on the wrong things and there is too much bullshit flying around, from both sides, which is a sign that it hasn’t been thought out properly.

Supafreak wrote:

@andy-mac , my base will be lembongan, 1 month trips away east and west with mates 3 or 4 times a year. Getting a C317 visa which gives me 2 years initially. Haven’t planned past that yet . … @ harrycoopr I can relate to the grumpy old man antics .

Unreal mate!!
Enjoy.... lots of waves for you.

indo-dreaming wrote:

gsco wrote:

Fliplid, lobby groups aren't permanent advisory bodies legally codified in the constitution and given public taxpayer funding.

And FNPs already have equal freedom, rights and opportunity to set up their own lobby groups.

Equal treatment is fundamental to what it means to be Australian. The Voice is directly at odds with this basic tenet of western civilisation.

There's no point to being indigenous lobby groups because they already have much more than that in things like NIAA and Coalition peaks and of course a Minister of indigenous affairs.

They are actually already the most represented, recognised and tax payer funded group in Australia

No Pauline...u talkin about whiteys