indo-dreaming wrote:

Roadkill wrote:

indo-dreaming wrote:

tubeshooter wrote:

"According to reports, Khelif has Swyer Syndrome — meaning she was born with some XY chromosomes. Medical journals say people with Swyer are typically taller and thin, with a relatively small uterus. But they have sex organs typical of women. They do lack ovaries, and are therefore infertile — but they can become pregnant via an implanted, fertilized egg."

https://wabcradio.com/2024/08/01/whats-the-big-controversy-with-womens-…

Hmmm okay interesting if this is the case.

But if true and she was born with natural women bits and not natural man bits, she really is a women.

Male is XY female is XX.

Yet, Swyer syndrome is born with XY and have normal female reproductive organs, including a uterus, fallopian tubes, and vagina.

Now it’s getting not so clear cut. Wow..what a tough call as the athlete has always identified as female.

Oh okay didnt even pick that up, i think in fairness for all competitors in any sports chromosomes must match and natural born anatomy must match.

It might not seem fair to that tiny 0.1% or less but its much more fair for the other 99.9%

Of course in 2024 basic common sense is not so common anymore.

Maybe that's an adequate takeaway - that commonsense is lacking - though far more interesting is the knee-jerk pile-on when a new hot button issue has been touched.

That says far more about modern times than anything else at the 'Lympics.

Supafreak wrote:

indo-dreaming wrote:

tubeshooter wrote:

"According to reports, Khelif has Swyer Syndrome — meaning she was born with some XY chromosomes. Medical journals say people with Swyer are typically taller and thin, with a relatively small uterus. But they have sex organs typical of women. They do lack ovaries, and are therefore infertile — but they can become pregnant via an implanted, fertilized egg."

https://wabcradio.com/2024/08/01/whats-the-big-controversy-with-womens-…

Hmmm okay interesting if this is the case.

But if true and she was born with natural women bits and not natural man bits, she really is a women.

Women with this syndrome can also give birth , don’t know any men that can do that .

Not a woman, not a man. Stay away from women’s Olympic boxing where you’re fighting actual women.

burleigh wrote:

Supafreak wrote:

indo-dreaming wrote:

tubeshooter wrote:

"According to reports, Khelif has Swyer Syndrome — meaning she was born with some XY chromosomes. Medical journals say people with Swyer are typically taller and thin, with a relatively small uterus. But they have sex organs typical of women. They do lack ovaries, and are therefore infertile — but they can become pregnant via an implanted, fertilized egg."

https://wabcradio.com/2024/08/01/whats-the-big-controversy-with-womens-…

Hmmm okay interesting if this is the case.

But if true and she was born with natural women bits and not natural man bits, she really is a women.

Women with this syndrome can also give birth , don’t know any men that can do that .

Not a woman, not a man. Stay away from women’s Olympic boxing where you’re fighting actual women.

You sound like Charlie Kirk..also a moron.

I recall you saying previously only woman can give birth yet here you are?

I would probably recognise this person as a woman. Biology obviously has some shades of grey…and I thought it was black and white.

Should she be able to fight in the women’s division? I am unable to answer that, still thinking this through.

Things are not as neat and tidy as some would like to believe.

blackers wrote:

Things are not as neat and tidy as some would like to believe.

We still don’t actually know 100% that khelif was born with swyer syndrome , there may be other explanations. This will be a news story for some time yet , it’s a huge story and people are getting publicity and making money from it . I just hope the whole truth comes out eventually . It’s certainly fired people up .

Must've been hard on her growing up with it. And now this stuff.
Should she be allowed to compete?
I don't know.
She does have a certain biological advantage, and in a sport like boxing I think there can be an argument for the negative.

And fuck the media of today for continually chumming the waters.
Yeah, people react, often mistakenly. Can't blame them all though. They had me going for a while.
None of the early reports I saw or heard made any mention of her condition.
I heard about the XY test and googled "can a woman have xy chromosomes" and whoala.
They aren't amateurs, they do this deliberately, recklessly and relentlessly.
On all sides.
I can't see an end to it.

Edit.. As Supafreak points out this story is not fully confirmed.
It just seems very plausible given what's been put out so far.

time to move past commercialised competitive sports as a lazy societal glue I reckon.

I had the same thoughts tubeshooter , the media know what they’re doing when it comes to stirring the pot . It’s business as usual for them . The hate towards her is sickening as she’s been painted as the big bad dude in all of this . Competed most of her life in the female division and has had 9 losses to other women . Does she have such a huge advantage? I don’t know but others in her division don’t seem scared and one is saying bring it on .

Bring back amateur Olympics

- this bloke below got X, Y .....aaaaaand Z
... the Z allows one to go well beyond gender ;)

Z enhances noggin thickness and improves adverse groin incident recovery capabilities when encountering unforeseen sudden impacts
- unfortunately overall decision making has shown to be compromised ;)

Supafreak wrote:

blackers wrote:

Things are not as neat and tidy as some would like to believe.

We still don’t actually know 100% that khelif was born with swyer syndrome , there may be other explanations. This will be a news story for some time yet , it’s a huge story and people are getting publicity and making money from it . I just hope the whole truth comes out eventually . It’s certainly fired people up .

Agree totally that we don't know. My point was that biology is not neat. Loads of variables that do not fit a simplistic view such as the "she's a he argument".

Roadkill wrote:

burleigh wrote:

Supafreak wrote:

indo-dreaming wrote:

tubeshooter wrote:

"According to reports, Khelif has Swyer Syndrome — meaning she was born with some XY chromosomes. Medical journals say people with Swyer are typically taller and thin, with a relatively small uterus. But they have sex organs typical of women. They do lack ovaries, and are therefore infertile — but they can become pregnant via an implanted, fertilized egg."

https://wabcradio.com/2024/08/01/whats-the-big-controversy-with-womens-…

Hmmm okay interesting if this is the case.

But if true and she was born with natural women bits and not natural man bits, she really is a women.

Women with this syndrome can also give birth , don’t know any men that can do that .

Not a woman, not a man. Stay away from women’s Olympic boxing where you’re fighting actual women.

I recall you saying previously only woman can give birth yet here you are?

Fuck. This has been the delicious part of the whole unfortunate pile-on by idiots before they had any idea of the facts. Transphobes who've been running that line, now trying to find ways to backpedal. Brilliant.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/olympics/boxing-gender-war-explo…

View this post on Instagram

Let’s hear from actual sports people, not the work brigade Hiccup. This ain’t being trans phobic you moron. Sit down and shut up champ

A couple of tracks for @Burls.
Every outrage deserves a good soundtrack Burls...

adam12 wrote:

A couple of tracks for @Burls.

Every outrage deserves a good soundtrack Burls...

Here comes the woke brigade. Fair for one person making it unfair for everyone else seems to be a common theme around here.

burleigh wrote:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C-JRgYPucxJ/?igsh=MTR6ejdpa2M4ZTJvYg==

Let’s hear from actual sports people, not the work brigade Hiccup. This ain’t being trans phobic you moron. Sit down and shut up champ

Ah yes, elite sportspeople. Commonly well regarded for their astute and educated opinions.

Hiccups wrote:

burleigh wrote:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C-JRgYPucxJ/?igsh=MTR6ejdpa2M4ZTJvYg==

Let’s hear from actual sports people, not the work brigade Hiccup. This ain’t being trans phobic you moron. Sit down and shut up champ

Ah yes, elite sportspeople. Commonly well regarded for their astute and educated opinions.

Hiccup is good with biological women being bashed by not biological women, That's abuse mate.

i'm ready for the transphobic call to come...... just say it hiccup, let the wokeness free.

Everything is not always black or white @burls, there is also grey.

burleigh. “Only a woman can give birth”

You said it on this forum. So, if only a woman can give birth and this athlete can give birth…..

What say you now?

I am happy to admit this case has given me a reason to learn and see things as not so black and white…surely burleigh you could to?

I have definitely been in the 2 genders only and mostly with XX and XY and ability to give birth etc etc argument.

burleigh wrote:

Hiccups wrote:

burleigh wrote:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C-JRgYPucxJ/?igsh=MTR6ejdpa2M4ZTJvYg==

Let’s hear from actual sports people, not the work brigade Hiccup. This ain’t being trans phobic you moron. Sit down and shut up champ

Ah yes, elite sportspeople. Commonly well regarded for their astute and educated opinions.

Hiccup is good with biological women being bashed by not biological women, That's abuse mate.

i'm ready for the transphobic call to come...... just say it hiccup, let the wokeness free.

Khelif was assigned female at birth, has always been a woman, and has a uterus etc. Carini has apologised to her, so you should probably pipe down now.

Roadkill wrote:

burleigh. “Only a woman can give birth”

You said it on this forum. So, if only a woman can give birth and this athlete can give birth…..

What say you now?

are you assuming i said this? prove it buddy.

Why don't you rage against something worth raging about, burleigh, you peasant.

https://apnews.com/article/olympics-2024-beach-volleyball-rapist-471cab…

burleigh wrote:

Roadkill wrote:

burleigh. “Only a woman can give birth”

You said it on this forum. So, if only a woman can give birth and this athlete can give birth…..

What say you now?

are you assuming i said this? prove it buddy.

Lol…too dumb to actually have a mature thought and too tough guy to try to learn and change.

burleigh wrote:

adam12 wrote:

A couple of tracks for @Burls.

Every outrage deserves a good soundtrack Burls...

Here comes the woke brigade. Fair for one person making it unfair for everyone else seems to be a common theme around here.

@Burls, aw, c'mon Burls, I'm not trying to wake you up to anything, you be you, it's all just a learning curve. I'm just trying to provide a bit of music to go along with your Saturday morning outrage.
So you didn't like the 70's disco soul, that's cool, maybe some rock'n'roll?.....

Or some country/folk???

Burleigh is an easy read…when he is stumped and lacking anything like a slightly coherent reply he either goes full retard and gets all mouthy and / or puts up blocks with questions asking for “prove it” etc etc

He has done both today.

A man boy of little substance. Funny at best.

Roadkill wrote:

Burleigh is an easy read…when he is stumped and lacking anything like a slightly coherent reply he either goes full retard and gets all mouthy and / or puts up blocks with questions asking for “prove it” etc etc

He has done both today.

A man boy of little substance. Funny at best.

Pot kettle if ever I've heard it right there.

fitzroy-21 wrote:

Roadkill wrote:

Burleigh is an easy read…when he is stumped and lacking anything like a slightly coherent reply he either goes full retard and gets all mouthy and / or puts up blocks with questions asking for “prove it” etc etc

He has done both today.

A man boy of little substance. Funny at best.

Pot kettle if ever I've heard it right there.

To be fair, Roadkill isn't even in the same ballpark of ignorance.

...

Roadkill wrote:

I am happy to admit this case has given me a reason to learn and see things as not so black and white…surely burleigh you could to?

I have definitely been in the 2 genders only and mostly with XX and XY and ability to give birth etc etc argument.

While it is good that in this case we can go okay this one isn't so clear cut, this is a very rare case based on a medical condition, things otherwise are almost always very black and white when it comes to sex/gender, even with trans people, most are clearly just men or women from birth that just want to be the opposite sex, very few are born with medical conditions related to sex/gender.

But yeah like i said before if you want to be fair to 99.9% of athletics you just have to be unfair to this 0.1%, and these types of issue should be sorted out way way down the line before getting to the olympics not just for the fairness of overall competition but also to be fair to these athletics with these rare medical syndrome's as if common sense and fairness to the majority was applied which you hope in the future it is this doesn't leave these athletes many options to compete at the top level.

Roadkill wrote:

burleigh wrote:

Roadkill wrote:

burleigh. “Only a woman can give birth”

You said it on this forum. So, if only a woman can give birth and this athlete can give birth…..

What say you now?

are you assuming i said this? prove it buddy.

Lol…too dumb to actually have a mature thought and too tough guy to try to learn and change.

Don’t let the truth get in the way of a good story buddy.

indo-dreaming wrote:

Roadkill wrote:

I am happy to admit this case has given me a reason to learn and see things as not so black and white…surely burleigh you could to?

I have definitely been in the 2 genders only and mostly with XX and XY and ability to give birth etc etc argument.

While it is good that in this case we can go okay this one isn't so clear cut, this is a very rare case based on a medical condition, things otherwise are almost always very black and white when it comes to sex/gender, even with trans people, most are clearly just men or women from birth that just want to be the opposite sex, very few are born with medical conditions related to sex/gender.

But yeah like i said before if you want to be fair to 99.9% of athletics you just have to be unfair to this 0.1%, and these types of issue should be sorted out way way down the line before getting to the olympics not just for the fairness of overall competition but also to be fair to these athletics with these rare medical syndrome's as if common sense and fairness to the majority was applied which you hope in the future it is this doesn't leave these athletes many options to compete at the top level.

@Indo, not that I want to really get involved in this "debate",
FYI
"1.7 percent
Experts estimate that up to 1.7 percent of the population are born with intersex traits. Intersex people may have any gender identity or sexual orientation. For example, an intersex person (sex characteristics), may identify as a man (gender identity) and as heterosexual (sexual orientation)."
from Google.
As a comparison, the number of people who identify as Australian as a % of world population... 0.33%

well, it seems the world is about to learn what the 'I' in LBGQTI means...

finally...

the boxer is intersex - possessing either both, or ambiguous genitalia...

the real issue here is the IOC versus boxing rules

IOC have clearly gone all in on, and doubling down on, the trans friendly rules, even as bodies like those overseeing swimming are walking them back...

it should always be about the rules... assessing them, tweaking them, debating them...

but the world is now nutty

and adult conversations not had, not encouraged, not allowed...

it's actually not even a trans issue

the boxer is not trans

people are assigned a gender a birth, a rudimentary guess, later testing and development may prove otherwise...

so, basically we're back at...

'what is a woman?'

the gender agenda refuses to acknowledge chromosomes as a factor, when science tells us otherwise

choose your cult...

adam12 wrote:

indo-dreaming wrote:

Roadkill wrote:

I am happy to admit this case has given me a reason to learn and see things as not so black and white…surely burleigh you could to?

I have definitely been in the 2 genders only and mostly with XX and XY and ability to give birth etc etc argument.

While it is good that in this case we can go okay this one isn't so clear cut, this is a very rare case based on a medical condition, things otherwise are almost always very black and white when it comes to sex/gender, even with trans people, most are clearly just men or women from birth that just want to be the opposite sex, very few are born with medical conditions related to sex/gender.

But yeah like i said before if you want to be fair to 99.9% of athletics you just have to be unfair to this 0.1%, and these types of issue should be sorted out way way down the line before getting to the olympics not just for the fairness of overall competition but also to be fair to these athletics with these rare medical syndrome's as if common sense and fairness to the majority was applied which you hope in the future it is this doesn't leave these athletes many options to compete at the top level.

@Indo, not that I want to really get involved in this "debate",

FYI

"1.7 percent

Experts estimate that up to 1.7 percent of the population are born with intersex traits. Intersex people may have any gender identity or sexual orientation. For example, an intersex person (sex characteristics), may identify as a man (gender identity) and as heterosexual (sexual orientation)."

from Google.

As a comparison, the number of people who identify as Australian as a % of world population... 0.33%

Im not interested in this debate either so hopefully we can just leave it at this, but i know from looking into in the past that that figure is not correct, im sure you can agree it doesn't seem correct and that these figures below make much more sense.

tubeshooter wrote:

Must've been hard on her growing up with it. And now this stuff.

Should she be allowed to compete?

I don't know.

She does have a certain biological advantage, and in a sport like boxing I think there can be an argument for the negative.

And fuck the media of today for continually chumming the waters.

Yeah, people react, often mistakenly. Can't blame them all though. They had me going for a while.

None of the early reports I saw or heard made any mention of her condition.

I heard about the XY test and googled "can a woman have xy chromosomes" and whoala.

They aren't amateurs, they do this deliberately, recklessly and relentlessly.

On all sides.

I can't see an end to it.

Edit.. As Supafreak points out this story is not fully confirmed.

It just seems very plausible given what's been put out so far.

totally this

another thorn in this issue is the boxer being from algeria...

and the associated culture, assumptions, and laws... that comes with this...

trans isn't even a thing in algeria (it is... but...) but transitioning is not - due to culture and laws...

it's unfortunate that this has gotten all wrapped up in the trans debate - both in terms of seeking any truth and clarity... but also for the athlete involved...

yeh the traditional 'reactionaries' may have over reacted - but also, the trans community has vehemently also made it all about them - as they tend to do...

this debate is as old as the hills really, there has always been a grey area and questions about various olympic athletes - probably for as long as the olympics have been around...

and even people like sarena williams and martina navratilova have been caught up in these debates... two people - who from my perspective - are clearly women...

I think the most interesting thing about all this, is how the IOC have clearly taken a very 'progressive' stance... (gawwwed I hate these terms)

and that much of the world (and various sporting bodies) don't share their position...

I'm not commenting on the rights and wrongs here, but I think it is most interesting how the world is a bit all over the shop, due to various stages of development in terms of rules, culture and assumptions

I've noticed various social media accounts from algeria have gone from strong advocating, denial of the trans bit, and defensive righteousness, to locking their accounts down as the story unfolds

this highlights to me the various shortcomings of the globalisation project, the strengths of culture, and the gaping void between assumptions and perspectives around certain issues

the IOC have clearly leaped ahead, when possibly, if they are to truly represent the world and the olympic spirit and all that stuff...

maybe they should actually be more representative?

the opening ceremony shitshow, most certainly did not help in setting the scene should any athlete issues arise

personally I found that to appear purposefully triggering and inflammatory...

parisian artisan debates aside... was all that shit really necessary... and / or representative?

all it did was fuel this very top down push feeling that surrounds all these contemporary issues

and, was not very representative at all really, of what the olympics should be...

burleigh wrote:

Roadkill wrote:

burleigh wrote:

Roadkill wrote:

burleigh. “Only a woman can give birth”

You said it on this forum. So, if only a woman can give birth and this athlete can give birth…..

What say you now?

are you assuming i said this? prove it buddy.

Lol…too dumb to actually have a mature thought and too tough guy to try to learn and change.

Don’t let the truth get in the way of a good story buddy.

What’s the / your truth, burleigh?

Hiccups wrote:

Why don't you rage against something worth raging about, burleigh, you peasant.

https://apnews.com/article/olympics-2024-beach-volleyball-rapist-471cab…

...and burleigh, syppy, indo, no one wants to touch this? Poor choice of words I guess, but go on, keep debating the merits of letting a biological woman fight other biological women instead.

It’s a twisted story hey.
First impressions not necessarily what’s going on.

Complex, multi-faceted, modern tale of gender in sport etc. But the ‘scandal’ over this athlete seems to have its origins as recent as 2023, and seeded in IBA as a single point of truth on a test that hasn’t been shared with anyone.

Hiccups wrote:

Hiccups wrote:

Why don't you rage against something worth raging about, burleigh, you peasant.

https://apnews.com/article/olympics-2024-beach-volleyball-rapist-471cab…

...and burleigh, syppy, indo, no one wants to touch this? Poor choice of words I guess, but go on, keep debating the merits of letting a biological woman fight other biological women instead.

well personally I find it a bit off actually hiccups, and I was a bit troubled by some media justifying his presence at the games... but hey... comes down to rules I guess...

rules...

"...the merits of letting a biological woman fight other biological women instead..."

so, you really think there's no 'there' there?

a non event?

the 'rules' set in stone... and not to be questioned?

interesting you use the term 'biological woman'...

do you believe in science?

are you aware of xx versus xy chromosomes?

is your position ideologically driven or science driven?

'what is a woman?'

are you aware how politically loaded this question has become?

...a how ridiculous it appears when certain people of certain persuasion refuse to answer this simple question, yet now they are all on the 'biological woman' bus...

(a bit like your point 're. burliegh and the '...only women can give birth..' stance - which I thought was a good point... but, on writing this, it seems it works both ways...)

are you aware of post modernist influences on such predicaments and politics?

all questions I'd love your answers to

sincerely...

you really think this is a non event?

you think the swimming rules body revising their stance is a non event / mistake?

...transphobic even?

go on, indulge me...

opinion is fine... (post modernism baby!!)

simple yes / no's

I'm genuinely interested in how you see this as a total non event...

https://www.bbc.com/sport/olympics/articles/cye0ex43k63o

"She failed a gender eligibility test conducted by the IBA hours before her gold-medal showdown against China's Yang Liu."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Boxing_Association

"In September 2021, an independent report found that bouts leading up to and during the 2016 Rio Olympics had been manipulated."

"The International Olympic Committee had been concerned about the IBA under Kremlev's leadership. Kremlev has ties to Vladimir Putin, has moved much of the IBA's operations from Lausanne, Switzerland to Russia, ..... and opposed independent appointment of judges and referees. The IOC had been alarmed by the fact that the IBA's only sponsor is a Russian state-run energy giant Gazprom..."

The IBA is now going to award gold medal winning prize money to the Italian fighter.

Maybe there's a bit more to it than just the 'gender wars'.

Hiccups wrote:

Hiccups wrote:

Why don't you rage against something worth raging about, burleigh, you peasant.

https://apnews.com/article/olympics-2024-beach-volleyball-rapist-471cab…

...and burleigh, syppy, indo, no one wants to touch this? Poor choice of words I guess, but go on, keep debating the merits of letting a biological woman fight other biological women instead.

That grub can fuck right off too.

Ok, my first impression was wrong. The boxer ain’t a trans female. My bad, I was wrong and I’m sorry.

The boxer is female with male DNA which gives the boxer and unfair advantage in her female category.

If a female boxer with female dna took testosterone to get an advantage would they be disqualified? Is it a banned substance?

https://www.outsports.com/2024/7/31/24098788/hergie-bacyadan-trans-athl…

Hiccups wrote:

Hiccups wrote:

Why don't you rage against something worth raging about, burleigh, you peasant.

https://apnews.com/article/olympics-2024-beach-volleyball-rapist-471cab…

...and burleigh, syppy, indo, no one wants to touch this? Poor choice of words I guess, but go on, keep debating the merits of letting a biological woman fight other biological women instead.

The whole issue of how sex/gender should be determined is huge especially in regard to sports including surfing, it not only has ongoing ramifications for women athletes and just fairness in sport in general, but impacts other areas of the life's of women in society from women's rights, safes spaces, right to privacy or things like prisoner safety etc

Its a huge issue and an on going issue that most of us can see is often not being managed very well.

A rapist competing in the olympics kind of sucks and it's great if he is getting booed, but it doesn't disavantuge other competitors, being a rapist doesn't give you any competitive advantage.

If anything it might help others put in that 1% extra to beat him and most of the crowd you expect would be giving moral support to the rapist competitor.

Can someone explain to me what advantages khelif has over her opponents ? If she’s in a weight division where she has been beaten 9 times previously , where was the advantage ? If you are going to say her testosterone levels are higher making her stronger and harder hitting then how was she defeated previously ? In men’s boxing not all have the same levels of testosterone so are the men with less seen as weaker and therefore disadvantaged ?

Supafreak wrote:

Can someone explain to me what advantages khelif has over her opponents ? If she’s in a weight division where she has been beaten 9 times previously , where was the advantage ? If you are going to say her testosterone levels are higher making her stronger and harder hitting then how was she defeated previously ? In men’s boxing not all have the same levels of testosterone so are the men with less seen as weaker and therefore disadvantaged ?

If women take testosterone to improve their strength and performance do they get disqualified?

^^^ no idea burleigh , is that what testosterone does , boosts your strength and performance ?

I found this a good read as I thought the italian wasn’t really up to getting punched in the face by anyone ……… Aussie world champ lashes Italian boxer for ‘publicity stunt’ against Imane Khelif https://www.smh.com.au/sport/boxing/aussie-world-champ-lashes-italian-b…