seeds wrote:

Let’s do that Burls. By giving FNP a big fuck you last week! So many (shit) reasons for it. Yours? because of a grievance and no trust with the guvment over something in the past. Shit man, you sound like generations of blakfellas in this country with that story.

I voted yes.

frog wrote:

Correction,,,, meant 20 points - big lead

Waleed Aly says it well:

"He wrote that while the Yes advocates always insisted it was a “simple, modest proposal” as a “referendum proposal, it wasn’t simple at all”.

“It required you to jump through plenty of hoops…” he continued.

These “hoops” included whether the proposal was a good idea, whether it should be a constitutional body and if it was “prudent to entrench a largely untried institution in this way rather than try it out first?”

Aly argued voters also had to contend with whether there would be any “unintended consequences” from the proposal.

He described each of these “hoops” as “big questions” that voters had to answer yes to if they wanted to land in the Yes camp.

By contrast, to vote No you only needed to disagree with one of those questions, he reasoned."

A self stated "chance of a generation" campaign with feet of clay of FNP leadership and Albo's own making.

Hmmm really good observation, Waleed is 100% on the money here.

Your post before this one was a good one too.

goofyfoot wrote:

Jelly -

“ Imagine some cunt busted your door in, forced their way into your place, possibly put a rifle in ya face and just upped and left with ya kids. Just farkn stole them.

- imagine you never saw them again, and they never saw their family again.

Wonder what it was like for your kids as they got forced to a new home, were forced to dress and speak and believe in stuff that was, strangely enough, forced upon them…

- going to sleep in a foreign bed, in a place with other kids in the same bewildering, terrifying situation. Must’ve been on their ‘to do’ list right…”

A few years ago before I had kids these couple of paragraphs wouldn’t of made me think twice about them but since becoming a dad every time I’m reminded of this fucked up part of Australia’s history it honestly makes me feel sick.

I just can not begin to imagine what these people went through.

To think it happened in this amazing country is mind boggling.

How could people do this to another family

Ironically, goofy (and it helps to reconcile the disgustingness of it a little), a lot of the people that did this thought they were doing it for humanist/noble reasons. Australia at that time had half the people treating Aboriginal people like 'uncivilisable' animals (that would never learn to appreciate gsco's 'western pillars'), and half the country saying "give them a chance... they can learn to read, write, embrace Jesus, and quote from the '1066 and all that' timeline.." Result: a new form of tragic horror-show for the still-shell-shocked Indigenous people of this land.

Possibly the most ham-fisted, damaging and misplaced act of 'doing the right thing' in human history. Time to learn, grow, and not feel threatened by a socially evolving in Australia.

"You tell me, what sort of bloke come into someone else's backyard,
And say, 'All this belong to me'.
How you feel? Some stranger, you don't even know, come in your lounge room,
strangle the chooks, rape the television, kick over the barby,
stick up a flag next to the clothes line,
And say, 'All this belong to England.
Then goes out the garage, grab your Torana, drive down to Sydney Cove,
And say 'All that belong him too."
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="

title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen></iframe>

At last half might have been "trying to do the right thing " .
Misplaced ? Why ?
This only happened here , I think .
Perhaps humans had learned a bit over time .
Not the normal way colonised people had been treated through history .
There is a lot more than half ( don't use the ref numbers ) trying to do the right thing now .

I think there is a time and a place to look at horrors of the past .

Would never tell a child about them .

As a father of girls , I have no problem with any enforcement officer , using any means necessary , to remove any child in Australia , if they are unsafe ( my definition will be different to others ) .

For any child , being unsafe is terrifying .
I believe FNP children are more unsafe than other Australian children .
It tears me apart .

wow @ tubeshooter, interesting archive! White people pedaling gallows humour to get the message across in the 80s was ok.. Briggs now frowned upon.. food for thought. Good post.

@pop, unsafe from what? Historically? Or now? Or both? Doesn't the 'we'll save you from yourselves' edict ring a little hollow?

Safe from harm .
Now .
I hope I'm wrong .

No argument here. Deal with it all the time, mandatory reporting is heartbreaking, not an issue specifically relevant to this thread. Neglect and abuse knows no cultural, class or racial boundaries.

More gold.

6
Individuals have people( think politicians as well ) telling them "we will save you from yourselves" all the time .
When it comes to children safety and it's delivered with the right intensions it's okay imo
They can try anything !
My manager has told me that ( via email ) twice today .

6 Please look "UP:)"
U are right .
They , the people we employ to make these decisions .
There are lots of They's .
They can define anything .
I am desperate for Anything to start now .
Any why should this NOT be in this thread ?? Have a better suggestion ?

oh, indo..
Hanson casting herself as the gin-sponsored-important-wise-matron figure.. deary me. Cute Bluey reference. The referendum money was money well spent, to my mind, to bring all these conversations to the fore, for all Aussies. Let's not let it all slide now.

@pop, I hear you, lots of us were desperate for Anything to start now. Before anything with emotion or social conscience is deflected as cultural marxism (i.e. there can be multiple sides to an argument exhibiting social conscience), mad mad mad mad world.

Speaking of gold.

Pop Down wrote:

6

Individuals have people( think politicians as well ) telling them "we will look after you from yourselves" all the time .

When it comes to children safety and it's delivered with the right intensions it's okay imo

They can try anything !

Again, no argument here, though I'd define the 'they' and rein in the 'anything', myself. Why's it in this thread, again?

6 - just in. case U miss it , I replied to your interesting request , personal suggestion and silly question above .

I added to my post above @pop. It wasn't a silly q, just a plea, we need those more, now that they are so easily batted away : )

basesix wrote:

oh, indo..

Hanson casting herself as the gin-sponsored-important-wise-matron figure.. deary me. Cute Bluey reference. The referendum money was money well spent, to my mind, to bring all these conversations to the fore, for all Aussies. Let's not let it all slide now.

I dont think it was a total waste of money because i think its important for Australia to have a direct say in some issues like this.

But what i find frustrating is how so much money is spent for one question, surely for not that much more money we could have been given another seperate sheet of paper and been asked our thoughts on say changing Australia day or a federal Treaty, so we can either put these things to bed or move forward with them, instead every year we will get the whole Australia day debate and then regarding Treaty its kind of a bit blurry, if we say no to the voice the first step to Treaty does that mean Australians dont support a federal Treaty process?.

We dont know, but we could have found out.

It's a fair point indo, but I have never seen Aussies try to get their head around the complexities of a local issue like this, and I am pleased it was this issue, and people found their own sub-issues and personal questions within it, and were actually TALKING about it.. It sent the online-OCD's into a hell of a scamper for a time ; )
...after covid, and before the middle east, this was our little local Aussie moment of crazy. no-one can take that away...

We somehow got through it all without the thread being closed, so it was kind of a success in that way.

@indo yes, good point. I wish they asked about the Australia Day. Honestly, the current date means nothing to me personally. I love the public holiday in January but other than that, I really don’t care about the first fleet’s arrival. I would vote to change it to something that can unite all our citizens.

6
Perhaps that's the problem ?
U and too many others have never "seen Aussies get their heads around complex issues like this ".
I have .

We are smarter than too many on this thread give us credit for .
Give us a chance and we will show we are quite good at it .
Especially if a good conscious is required .

A proper Ref HAS to cover all bases .
Any vacuums and shit will fill it .

We ALL know the issue is complex !!!

I expected BOTH sides , YES and NO to be VERY prepared for a long campaign .
It is a big decision , they should be the easiest to make .
Australians will make their own decisions in the way they chose .
That is fantastic !
It's a free country .

Supafreak wrote:

Speaking of gold.

Supa the meme guy. Do better champ

Better ?

I don't disagree. What's the problem @pop? Who is 'we'?
I am not a conservative, but I am a traditionalist,
and respect others who are the same, from their particular background.
I agree with conservative points if they are reasoned, fair, and relevant.
But also am open to things that are stupid being addressed, even if messy.
I carry my cultural forebears with me in understandings,
just as I assume others do, which sometimes creates fervent discussion.
Looking outside of ourselves is the greatest freedom.
What's the beef?
(apologies, AndyM, for the last line)

G’day @supafreak, this approach has served me well over the years with lil buddy, hope you’re doing well btw,

post picture

Great post earlier today @jellyflater.
Cheers

This one’s worth another go ;)
- dunno why ppl get so butthurt about music or music vids etc…

Yeah love this one

great track. I'd love people with a flo, message, and production like this to embrace the full limitations of the 808 - they got this. Strong, simple samples, but. Great adam12 post earlier ; )

…and this

basesix wrote:

No argument here. Deal with it all the time, mandatory reporting is heartbreaking, not an issue specifically relevant to this thread. Neglect and abuse knows no cultural, class or racial boundaries.

+1 Base and thanx for the flashlight.

*

The irony. With many Indigenous leaders declaring a week of silence to grieve last weekend's referendum result, Australian politics was largely reduced this week to what the Voice was supposed to address: White people yelling at each other while First Nations people were forced to watch from the sidelines. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-21/indigenous-leaders-week-silence-…

Supafreak wrote:

The irony. With many Indigenous leaders declaring a week of silence to grieve last weekend's referendum result, Australian politics was largely reduced this week to what the Voice was supposed to address: White people yelling at each other while First Nations people were forced to watch from the sidelines. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-21/indigenous-leaders-week-silence-…

Week of silence? stop it champ.

Even your mate Briggs flew himself to Japan.

Haha Burls is following Briggs’ socials. He might just be starting to like his music.

Just calling supa out on his bias bullshit doom and gloom predictions.

I did like his music. But i notice again he's calling Australians racists on his story today.

@burleigh , I find you to be more angry then Briggs , you seem to be angry at just about everything, anything and everyone. Cheer up mate and count your blessings .

Burliegh
Well I think there might be a bigger element to that then we want to acknowledge. It’s easy to find some other excuse than look deep into your beliefs. Look at all the weird and wacky No arguments. Looked to me like the No camp was like a crazy discombobulated game of twister of excuses. With real beliefs. Crazy what we can convince ourselves of.
keep it simple stupid is the way I looked at it. (Like most things)
Cheers for voting yes. Like you said (in my mind) when push came to shove you
put all that aside

as artists do :)

We had a referendum and nothing has changed .
We have a big issue to sort out urgently , imho .
The people of Australia , I believe , want this sorted out properly , once a for all .

The governments have had their chances and have stuffed it up , again .
So , it's time to change things .
Someone else has to do the work .
We need a Group of 9 to do the hard work .
Royal Commission type powers , but on steroids .

Adam 12 ( seems like the sites Lawyer ) - any suggestions ?

Get all the Stakeholders in the 9 .

A Chairperson to have the final vote on ALL contentious and delicate decisions .
This person needs Clout !
Needs to have experience in most of the important issues affecting our FNP .
Someone we can trust .

Some possible suggestions for the 8 .
That terrible Senator woman who gets in trouble lying in front of things .
Mundine .
Rosie Batty
Finance - to Set up a $20B Future Fund with ALL mining royalties feeding it .
Sacred Site Expert
Building and Mining Expert to stop all the unnecessary bureaucracy and delays .

FNP can have all 9 positions , IF , the best person for the job .

burleigh wrote:

Supafreak wrote:

The irony. With many Indigenous leaders declaring a week of silence to grieve last weekend's referendum result, Australian politics was largely reduced this week to what the Voice was supposed to address: White people yelling at each other while First Nations people were forced to watch from the sidelines. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-10-21/indigenous-leaders-week-silence-…

Week of silence? stop it champ.

Even your mate Briggs flew himself to Japan.

a bit like the snow white hillsong crew of political movements... GetUp...

acknowledge the call for a week of silence... and said... yeh nah

Pop Down wrote:

We had a referendum and nothing has changed .

We have a big issue to sort out urgently , imho .

The people of Australia , I believe , want this sorted out properly , once a for all .

The governments have had their chances and have stuffed it up , again .

So , it's time to change things .

Someone else has to do the work .

We need a Group of 9 to do the hard work .

Royal Commission type powers , but on steroids .

Adam 12 ( seems like the sites Lawyer ) - any suggestions ?

Get all the Stakeholders in the 9 .

A Chairperson to have the final vote on ALL contentious and delicate decisions .

This person needs Clout !

Needs to have experience in most of the important issues affecting our FNP .

Someone we can trust .

Some possible suggestions for the 8 .

That terrible Senator woman who gets in trouble lying in front of things .

Mundine .

Rosie Batty

Finance - to Set up a $20B Future Fund with ALL mining royalties feeding it .

Sacred Site Expert

Building and Mining Expert to stop all the unnecessary bureaucracy and delays .

FNP can have all 9 positions , IF , the best person for the job .

and that's why the referendum failed...

it offered nothing tangible for the electorate to support

just more same same... with another layer of bureauracy...

they needed to actually offer something like above

or, at a minimum, acknowledge what is not working... ie. 50+ NGO groups operating in wilcannia

it isn't popular amongst the blackfella establishment and their white knights...

but many blackfellas call for an inquiry into the land councils and the like. these are little hotbeds of corruption and the seeds of much violence

the NGO megacomplex also needs investigating, this isn't pointing the bone at blackfellas, but at all participants! ... and how it just is not working!

a massive multi million dollar rec. centre in alice springs... whilst there are people living on concrete slabs and without water...

makes no sense!

it ain't only jp and mundine saying this, but a heap of dissident blackfellas, who have had, and seen enough...

and as kos samaras pointed out, if the referendum had a class aspect to it, many more people could have seen it as a step in the right direction... but it was the exact opposite... big business, big banks, celebrities, and the aboriginal elite...

why was that?

why no talk of poverty and class issues?

hmmmmmm....

a massive own goal

SYP

So many people have a Vested Interested in NOT having this issue sorted out .
I imagine how many pissed off lawyers and advocates ( from all sides ) there would be IF we could achieve , what NO other country , that I can think of , has achieved ( most never had the chance ) .

A true and proper reconciliation with our FNP brother and sisters .

Listening to PBS , again .
Just heard the most beautiful song .
Had no idea who it was .
Was thinking the Voice could have used it .
"Marching " together , or something .
Texted into the presenter and said OMG ( and I am not religious ) as was so impressed ( twice that's happened today ) .

I had a huge smile when she said it was a name I was introduced to on this thread , only a few days ago .

Briggsy !!! Spinefex Gum playing at the Sydney Opera House .
Some Cat Empire ( love them ) input to , apparently .

Life is soooo interesting .

It was brilliant !

Checked out Briggsy arguing the National Anthem issue .
Guessing other Australians , generally , will agree that his music is wonderful .

It is a bit negative to try smash the view that our country is not free .
Most Australians , probably , believe our legal system is impartial .
Pointing out incarceration rates makes them think that FNP commit more crimes , maybe ?
Not the way to successfully argue your case , imo . I stopped listening to him after that intro .

I would say this would be the next logical step for mainland indigenous groups moving forward.
Would be interested in the thoughts of the crew who voted No if they support this form of autonomy?
I for one, obviously am 100 percent behind it.
https://www.sbs.com.au/nitv/the-point/article/torres-strait-islanders-w…

s/r

U highlight a major issue .

DO FNP need different Laws than other Australians ?

I say they may need them in some specific cases , but can't HAVE them , so I say No !

U ?

If U say Yes , we need Adam12 to try and work out HOW . perhaps .

So U think Torres Straight Islanders should start their own country ?
Really , how will they fund it ?

Mainland ????
Oh My Stars !
How many new countries will be inside Oz ?
Funding ???

I think , IF , some Islands WANT to go it alone , Australians will agree .
Some will think it is a great way to get rid of a problem .
Not Tasmania , of course .

Funding for these countries will then come from China .

What could go wrong ?

southernraw wrote:

I would say this would be the next logical step for mainland indigenous groups moving forward.

Would be interested in the thoughts of the crew who voted No if they support this form of autonomy?

I for one, obviously am 100 percent behind it.

https://www.sbs.com.au/nitv/the-point/article/torres-strait-islanders-w…

Depends what they mean by autonomy and sovereignty, being isolated with a population of only 4,5400 people, and their own council, its fair to expect they have control over most things

Id be betting that state and government funding is also much much higher than other areas of Australia.

Its fine to want more or total autonomy and sovereignty but if you want that you also need to take more responsibility financially and stand on your own feet, which then gets into the area of a seperate state or country as Pops touches out. (which isn't realistic or sustainable)

You cant have it both ways where you expect all this outside funding but also expect those providing the funding to just say here you are do what you want with it.

In regards to the article about it always being others coming in a starting small business, this isnt just a thing there, id expect it happens all around the world in more remote areas, i see this in Indonesia go out to the port towns of Mentawai or Telos for example its not locals who own all the business/shops its dominated by people who have moved there from the mainland from Padang and Medan, you can tell because they have very different facial bone structure and features and are often muslim or Chinese or just by the name of the shop or even food served etc.

Id expect it has to do with not just money but also mind set/culture and just understanding of business, practice & development and knowledge and connections to suppliers from outside the area.

Best way to tackle these types of things and get locals more involved in business is through education and development program's, the problem here is often the children do go off to further education outside of the region but they rarely come back they either get a taste of the new exciting outside world and dont want to give it up or met a partner from this outside world and settle down. or there is just much more opportunity in the outside world especially when educated.

Yeah cheers for your feedback @indo and @popdown
@Popdown i'd imagine autonomy within existing mainland communities and cities could be reached without 'giving them their own country'.
Logistically, way beyond me to even try to explain the whats and hows but all i know is the current way isn't working out too well for alot of people in these places. I guess it's always going to come back to that same old chestnut...who's country is this legally? Or who rightfully belongs to this country and holds claims over it's management and their own social and economic structures(hint, legally it's probably the people who had the land stolen from them)?
And, legally, what rights do they have to self determination and how does that look? But you have to be willing to answer that first question honestly to move any further than that.
Would it be too far fetched and idealistic to imagine autonomy can be achieved with coexistence of both indigenous and non indigenous communities? It is 2023. We are living in an age of evolving technology and communication. We're capable of working through problems alot more effectively than in the past.
@indo, i posted something yonks ago about an island off the oz coast that was already going along this route of autonomy but i can't for the life of me find the link. I'd be interested to see how this 'experiment' has gone as it's probably been 3 years or so now.

https://kangaroocourtofaustralia.com/2023/10/22/peter-dutton-jacinta-pr… Peter Dutton, Jacinta Price and her mother Bess Price exposed conspiring to loot $million from Indigenous funding via a school grant
BY SHANE DOWLING ON OCTOBER 22, 2023